We should stop autoupvoting in POB !
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Automation is good for a business. Most of the people aim to delegate the work to others to enjoy and take a rest.
That's why most investors who powered up, see it good to autoupvote others to have that passive income without doing much work, just like in the real world where directors of companies hire workers to do the main work and just to control them sometimes. But we are all in another world. The crypto world !
Most of us want to see the decentralization here. Everyone has his/her own definition about what it is and how it should be. The best one I read in a comment :
.... decentralization means people can come together to define the set of rules of behavior instead of one entity doing it...
It’s in progress
That's what @mistakili said, and I agree with him.
If we just complain about things we don't like without doing anything to change them, everything will stay as it is !
That's why I wish the automation will stop in the proof of brain tribe. I think it's unfair to see someone doing his best to share good ideas and useful information and being unseen. While some are autoupvoted and placed in the trending page right away, no matter what they write. Is that a decentralization we all want ?
I curate a lot in the new page and I see how things are done. It's hard to not see that when you care about the platform. If you consider this the best platform, and you want it to grow, so maybe it's time to make some changes ?
It's not even about fairness. But about the reputation of the platform. When people join here and see the same authors trading again and again with any content they write, they understand that's not about the content, but about something else. It's not always the case with everyone in trending, but still we see some repeated names, just because of being autoupvoted by the right guys.
I was autoupvoting as well, but I stopped that. I do mostly a manual curation, and it seems not that easy to do. It consumes a lot of time. But I chose to be in proof of brain, but not proof of something else. I chose to grow this way.
Maybe I'm wrong and autoupvoting is ok, I don't really know. It's the same about self upvote, some consider that ok, some are against that at all. It's hard to satisfy everyone. Maybe each has the right to do it his/her way, but we still have to have standards to follow.
Thanks for your support !
Agreed ... All my votes are Manual here on POB.
That's awesome !
I am at 14% APR with only manual votes. I also only upvote posts that are posted directly on https://Proofofbrain.io
You see, even manual upvotes are profitable. So, why we need to maximize that by autoupvoting and harming the platform at the same time. The concept is much more important than rewards !
Yes. Plus you earn way More posting and manual Curating only on the Proofofbrain.io blog
My goal is to have 1,000,000 POB Power and 10 Million Blurt Power by the end of the year.
There are terms that have become popular that have to do with automated voting: "fanbase" and "curation trail". These don't really make sense to me but these are terms used by Hive.vote.
"Fanbase" means the @steemauto bot will vote on a post if the post was posted by a member of your "fanbase".
"Curation trial" means the bot will vote on a post if on of the users also voted on such a post. I think your objections are to the "fanbase" autovoting but not the "curation trial" form of autovoting.
I cannot read everything that comes.
Yeah, that's all about fanbase. It's ok to like some authors and support their content in case we like it. But that should be done manually always. Imagine if someone will be hacked or write something against us all, will we put that trending without even looking. I've already seen someone posted an error post and that post was upvoted by many. That was funny to observe. Even those who autoupvoted that was called the shame list. lol
Anyway, I think such automation is against proof of brain, it doens't matter if that's going to funbase, or just following an account and upvoting what he/she upvotes. We can't delegate our brains to others. They manybe mistaken, no matter how much we liked them. Every day is a new day and a new content is created. That's why I enjoy the new page and don't look that much in trending.
Manual or auto, you’re going to see the same names regardless, because as you pointed out, it’s “not about the content, but about something else.”
At least manual are chosen by purpose. Automatic may upvote even what's they are not agree with. At least with manual, not all posts of that favorite author will be upvoted. The rewards may go to someone else and that will be a healthier distribution of rewards.
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I don't know about automatic votes, cururation trails right, that's not my problem, my problem is this automatic downvotes man.
One group downvotes, others join, and they don't even know what kind of content it is, is it bad to attrack downvotes?
I like the automatic votes, but choose only because, I believe that person heading that curation trail will vote only good articles, its a careful and responsible decision.
To be frank, I don't have the time to read many articles, I try read 3 to 4 a day and it pisses my off when I don't find quality articles and I like to upvote only quality articles, after reading and getting the gist of it. So, if a responsible curation trail is there , I opt for auto votes, sometimes that autovote has my vote on my own blog...anyway.
But manual curation is also important. I know when good articles are not upvoted it sucks and is kind of unfair, efforts should be on to upvote good articles definitely.
We can apply what I said to downvotes as well. It's better to have the full access to your account and what's it's doing, no matter if you trust those who use your account to upvote after them or not. They may always upvote what you will not like, will you remove that upvote after ? No, because most knows that they will have curation rewards from that and I don't think they will remove what wasn't upvoted by them. That's a big problem and in the end the content that's not liked by people turn trending and noone will do anything about that.
If it was up to me auto upvoting would be removed from Hive and any tribe all together. It does no one any good accept for the person auto upvoting. Everyone just turns on auto upvoting and what you get is a lot of inactive and a lot of not caring much anymore to post good quality content because the CRAP content is getting 100x more vote value than you.
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That's for sure !
Music to my ears, especially coming from you :-)
Well, you said it. I'll consider doing that in the next 24 hours. By considering, I meant that I'll stop it. It will give me more time and voting power to curate on POB anyway. I've never been more active anywhere else.
That's great. The more people stop that, the more alive curation we will have everywhere. ☺
Agree a 100%
auotvote is the opposite of the "proof of brain" concept. unfortunately I don't think its something that can be prevented.
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It's up only to us if we will keep doing that or not. The only solution I see is to stop doing that ourselves and stop upvoting those who are already autoupvoted very well every single day. I don't think they need more support that they already have. It's better to find someone really working hard to reward.
I see your point, 100%. Our power is our vote, so like you said if you see it and don't like it, then vote accordingly. That is proof of brain too!
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The system enables autovote, that is a technical issue. I think there will be a solution that a group of large stake holders in POB should commit to do manual curation to make the inflation rate slower.
That will be good to do !
Well I say anyone should do what they like with their power
We did not get to the decentralized system to be ordered around like the centralized economy do
Just put out the benefits of doing certain actions here and then once someone reads and understands, they will make their decisions
It will decisions that benefits them all the way
Autovoting should not be frown upon. Once someone put another in his or her fan base, it means they are a fan of that individual
They trust them to come up with interesting, and educating writings all the time
The people one should frown at are the ones whom are being trusted to deliver
They are the ones who are supposed to understand that to whom much is given, much is expected
If you know you are on someone's fan base or autovote, you should try as much as you can to bring good writings to the table
That way heads will nod in approval for the position that you occur when it comes to trennding on the platform
So, those who are autoupvoted by others, or autoupvoting others as well shouldn't blame those who are upvoting the same people manually. Both auth and manual upvoters have a list of people they upvote. Why it's ok to do that automatically, but not ok to do that manually. Don't you feel here double standards ?
I think you may find this interesting:
172647 POB voting power can bring up to 245 POB in rewards, on just one single vote click.
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I think that you do great curation work. I would follow your trail too if you made one.
There is no need to make anything special. Anybody can be trailing anyone he wish, on site hive.vote.
Without even asking questions or permissions
Do we need a general voting guide?
for example, a check list.
within this check list it will have questions about the quality of any post then we can set a points system to be tallied up.
x amounts of points equals to x amount of pob vote per person.
and the sum based upon the results of this list, should also include how much x amount of pob per post. if it exceeds then DV accordingly but with an explanation.
of course there would have to be a consensus about his matter. how much is too much, how much is too little etc.
what you guys think?
just throwing some ideas. don't forget me when you actually utilize this though eh?...
That's great. It's an innovative idea. Please join the discord server of the tribe : https://discord.gg/fN28qjKRPC
There is a channel for discussion there where you can suggest it to the team and they may do something like that.
I'm glad you talk about the solution and not only the issue !
I will make one for these occasions. bee chat doesn't connect on mobile for me so I will try out discord.
thanks for the invite.
Yes, complaining is easy and I believe should only be done by those that can bring ideas to the table otherwise the only other left is to give out their experience in an non complaining way. but as a means of wanting to learn something new. I opine.
I was just "attacked" by a trail of upvotes a few moments ago, received dozens of upvotes but I bet most of them did not watch the video I posted, they are there, most likely, just to farm the curation rewards
That's what usually happen to authors who join and get many upvotes without even being commented. So, the content maybe even not consumed, but upvoted. We may forget about feedback that way. lol
I follow curation trails. I do manual curation when I have time but want to support the platform and earn curation rewards when I am away from the computer (which is often). I make way more POB manually curating as compared to following the trails, but am interested in earning curation rewards on my POB power.
I understand your argument and appreciate it, but these trails do way better curation than I would if I was "forced" to manually curate. I don't have time. There would be 10 lottery 100% upvotes a day.
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I understand those who do it because they don't have time. But at least authors could be changed from time to time. Or when there is time they curate manually. But I don't understand those who goes 100% automatic. That could make more harm than good in the long term. Even the trail should be checked sometimes. They may use your stake not the way you like. It's just an opinion. Don't take it wrong. I was also autoupvoting because I didn't have time. But now I decide since it's a proof of brain I should go completely manual. Even if we give only 10 to 12 upvotes a day manual, it could be better than giving 100 automatic. Because that upvote will be big enough to be noticed, while many little ones could be so tiny. That may motivate everyone to do their best to get those big upvotes. After all, everyone is free to do with his power whatever he/she likes. Those were just my outloud ideas I shared with the community.
I appreciate the perspective and am writing up something to further this discussion.
I wrote a post about the trails and gave you a shout out in it. Check my blog if you are interested. TLDR: I am no longer following any trails.
Automatic votes often overshadow new users on the platform. It is important that you give new users the opportunity to be rewarded for their hard work and time spent creating your content. This preference is often observed, and for those of us who are new to this subject of automatic voting, we may ignore its importance. However, it is understood that investors and big brains often don't have time to vote manually. But I think if you really want to make a big change, you can spend some real time admiring and selecting posts that deserve the vote of the great brains.
could try the option of:
Completely agree. People may always find time to curate a bit if they really want that. At least giving 100% upvotes 12 times a day and 12 times at night. That way more quality posts will be rewarded and more abuse in case it exist will be found.
I think you should also join discord server to seggest your idea to the main accout of the tribe and to the team and other members active there.
@clixmoney Thanks for the invitation, I will take your suggestion and put my opinion on the table. Thank you again.
You're not wrong you're correct but not in the way you think. For instance bots are a way to correct the problem it's just that right now bots aren't being used properly. So when i first came to these dpos systems. I realized that the problems in dpos would have to be solved with a bot.
So manual curation is never going to work. Even if you got one benevolent whale who has the time to curate posts he's still going to be missing alot its still not going to be fair for some adn this is an achilles heel for dpos systems. As you underlined it doesn't seem fair to put the same people in your autovoter that you feel will upvote you back... that is part of your conclave. etc., so what happens to curating good content.. that goes out the window.. it's no way that will ever be handled fair.. i knew this one girl who received over $100 in upvotes everyday from community members on her posts.. I just found it hard to believe that everyday her posts were worth that much. That's an ongoing known common problem we haven't done anything to resolve. It looks bad to outsiders and us in crypto.
We know it looks bad and i think it does hurt us. So a project i started we have a unique system that i think shoudl win a nobel prize. We were able to understand that with conclave voting with no competitive pricing.. with people writing the same comparable value content and some earning 4 cents and others earning $100 on essentially comparable content. We were able to quickly understand we'd never be able to create a fair or accurate or balanced curation system.. unless we understood one thing.
That one thing is that content is subjectively valued but attention value depends on the metric of "time" As to say your attention value to let's just say and advertiser or a community attention... is valued the same per person to some degree. So we were able to create what we call the proof of participation model which takes what you do and puts it in an algo that generates you coins based on an average of what you do.. So say for instance you write a post gets alot of attention same attention value and time.. as well as upvotes as the next person.. The system still pays you a certain amount of tokens automatically there is no human mind behind this
Now interesting enough manual curation is still possible but there is a fair system of automated curation that covers everyone. So i think this is the new future model for this sorta thing. I think its going to make our project successful because it does away with the stigma.. Everybody feels this sense of fairness and it bothers and disturbs communities. So in alleviating that i find thats the answer.
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What's the name of the project ? I didn't get everything, are you working on it, or you mean it's good to have such project ? I like the idea to reward for proof of attention. For example a post that bring so many comments and that much activity means that the topic is important for people. So, this post doesn't worth $6 while the girl sharing pictures and videos everyday getting $100. Usually such girls are curators in big projects and they kind of pay her that way. I know a few of them. But, the paiment should be liquid not in form of upvotes. That's not good for the future of the platform. I always supported liquid payment, but not upvotes. Especially when I was working as a curator in dtube. I talked about that with the team, but they didn't like the idea. It's more easy for them to pay with upvotes instead of liquid token. That will be a proof of work and that shouldn't be mixed here with proof of brain. We can't pay a work for brain. lol
The project is called bitcoin myk. It's already a token on hive engine and the interface is already in use.So it's already built i think it should win a nobel prize. It not only automatically curates what you do. it distinguishes an average value of what you do and sends out tokens in relation to that value. So the example of the person receiving more for a comparable post does not happen. Both posts would earn the same. Manual curation is still possible as well. So you can still upvote its just that its not stakeweighted and all community members votes are equal. So it covers most issues with that. Nearly 14,000 accounts already have the token.
What's great about it is the governance model is based on group communities and not those with the most stake. Not sure if you read this article with not just problems with decentralization in pob but most tribes.
It also predates pob as a deflationary coin and the token reduces in supply against transactions. Because our model is constructed this way and already built. We believe we can potentially get 100 million users on the system. this is the site link https://www.bitcoinmyk.com
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The question O have in mind is what does it mean myk and is it a token built on hive-engine ?
Yes Bitcoin MYK or the anagram.. (M)aking (Y)our crypto with (K)nowledge. Is basically a bitcoin fork on hive engine. So the token is created on hive engine uses all the scot protocol so its as safe as hive engine is going to be. It does have wrapped versions of the tokens on other chains but the same supply. As to say we wrap the token on hive engine and if you're on another chain and want to use the token you can use a collateralized version of the token.
The model is different than a proof of stake model to gain consensus or a for profit model. So if you have bitcoin you automatically get btcmyk free in relation to the bitcoin. Your value is predicated on a merit based system and the supply comes from the tokens bitcoin holders dont claim either because they lose their password or they just aren't interested.. those tokens go back into circulation and are paid out to the rest of the community in a form of ubi or what they do on the platform. so just logging in daily earns you ubi.
Without being biased i think its the most secure token out there and the most likely to succeed. Simply because it works more like an actual currency model than a speculation model. So most tokens i have to buy its like a subscription service with us its a freemium service similar to how many mainstream social media sites gained billions of dollars. facebook now almost valued at $1 trillion.
We think its the most decentralized because in retrospect you're going to have probably the widest distribution model in crypto and the most fair. Remember you can buy the token on third party exchanges but you can't buy tokens and move them to the platform. All earnings and participation is fair and you have to use it to earn.. You can't really cheat the system or use money to overcome it in that fashion.
The project is lightweight and sustainable and can run for like 500 years. So yes very difficult to find issues in this project. Some would say they feel the platform is centralized etc., but even if there are levels of centralization much like we're finding out most tribes are and even hive to a great degree. The content is on a decentralized blockchain..The votes take place from group owners and the community on blockchains. So its very transparent to see if there are issues and again with the wide distribution we plan to have.. most of the issues of decentralization are going to be present in distribution of wealth. As to say if you own most of the coins the coins are actually the code of the network. So its not just money. You can control the network. So because our model will be so fair on distribution and widespread as its a freemium service model we feel ultimately we'll achieve the closest version of decentralization atleast in areas it matters.
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Why we can't login there with hive keychain ?
Yes we don't include hive signer on the platform. There are several reasons why. The first part is if we're to get 100 million users.. we can't have difficult systems to onboard people. So bitcoinmyk.com first acts as a transitional system. The next part is bitcoin myk system is multichain and doesn't occur on the hive engine blockchain.
You can think of it like leo and ethereum. You have a leo token on ethereum but the platform itself is not ethereum based. So bitcoin myk tokenization occurs on hive engine but the platform itself does not because it would be too difficult to gain alot of new users. So it works as a collateralized version. Bitcoin MYK exist on several blockchains.
The system operates more similar to eos voice. You can not purchase the tokens on the platform you can purchase third party them on exchanges but can't move them to the platform. as it only accepts our stable coin for purchase of products or the bbd dollar. The btcmyk token is meant to be a merit based fair system so you can only earn tokens on the platform and withdraw to your hive keychain wallet or other supporting btcmyk wallets. You can not purchase stake on our platform and thats done on purpose as again this experiment is about being the most merit based and fair system
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You use the word fair a lot.
Anyways, how users proves they have bitcoin and is the amount of bitcoin bring them the same amount of bitcoin myk ?
Yes we do but i believe fairness is a false idea. I'll give you a quick example. In america retirement age has been around 67.. in france decade ago it got moved up to 60 years old, lol. Which means in france people were retiring in their 50's.. so they started a riot in france and started setting things on fire. Meanwhile in the united states they were considering raising retirement age.. Which was fair? which is right and wrong?
The thing is doesn't even matter someone elses fair is another persons wrong.. The problem is the perception of the people matter. The problem around hive and why i think it can never grow with that type of user base. Is because the posts show earnings .. you got stakeholders whether they playing favorites or not people will always have this stigma and seeing that the distribution rate i'm sure is probably something like 1% of the hive network probably owns something like 50-90% of the entire platform i dont think thats escapable.
So proving you own the bitcoin is quite easy. It only requires a wallet signature. So you do need a wallet that you can sign a transaction with. If you don't want to sign a wallet you can use exchanges that have systems to honor our work like the waves exchange but the problem is if you don't have your bitcoin on waves then there is no way to verify you own them.
So you need to be able to do either or to claim the bitcoin myk free. The other part is obviously the price of btcmyk is in its beginning phase but its many times over more deflationary than btc.. it's deflating on every transaction. So the supply will end up 4x less than the btc supply. So the point of claiming your btcmyk from btc holdings is to protect in case it goes to thousands of dollars etc.,, then you have your holdings.. i think at this point in time you can acquire them so easily that its not that important at this time however...
In a future where btcmyk is hard to get.. As the supply dwindles if you're a bitcoin holder.. then thats going to come in handy as its going to give you a right...to claim btcmyk when nobody else can buy them cheaper. You'll still have that right as long as you own btc.
What we like about this approach is will make it easier for us to gain btc network effect. So we can easily inherit the millions of btc holders to push us to one of the projects with the most wallets and i think thats possible as we don't operate on a for profit business but more like a monetary system. So the entire system is about the network and wallets and we don't really play the stake game and all that. We don't feel that works ultimately.
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I'll check for reviews in the web about your website !
Sounds good. .here's an interesting article
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What's the benefit of the team if noone is putting money there ?
I don't understand why would you need to put money there? thats like asking why do you use facebook if nobody pays you?
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In the almost 4 years I've been here, I have considered auto voting as huge negative on the platform, it is simply the opposite to the philosophy of creat content as it doesn't encourage hard work when people know they will be upvoted anyway!
I would LOVE to see POB take the lead on this and it would surely encourage me to invest and create POB specific content.
Good luck with your quest! I will be watching on with great interest.
So, I see that stopping autoupvote in POB may even bring investors who value that and that's really awesome !
I can understand where your thinking is coming from but .... The problem with this is that you can't separate the votes in POB from HIVE and all the other communities in the HIVE ecosystem. If you remove any kind of automation from POB you remove it from everywhere. I don't know if you know how HIVE and its communities work, but everything is connected here.
If you want only those who are 100% dedicated to the network to stay here, it's going to be a pretty lonely place. Especially since it will have to happen with all the communities and HIVE.
Standards are quite relative. Who is going to decide them? As far as I have always seen, the one who makes the law makes the trap ... I have never been convinced by the "standards to be followed."
I would like to know what this means to you ....
.... I have seen that you have started to write with passion about POB but it seems to me that your passion is a bit overflowing.
POB is proof of brain. That's what I write about. Such concept exist in hive and each tribe. But proofofbrain.io is best example of that.
These are normal things😅, it has nothing to do with passion. When I talk about passion, I'm talking more about writing about "how one should interact with the network".
... And especially having votes thanks to that same criticized automation 😅.
Sorry, I wrote in spanish first and did not change the text to english in my comment before.