My response to Acidyo's "Shitcoins" post

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Was reading @acidyo's post here and ended up making a much longer comment than expected so I am putting it in a post.

You know what would be cool? More airdrops.

I did a few wave of airdrops for STEM. Many do an initial one and that's it, and leave it to distribution from there. In my opinion, most of them are very lopsided initially and creates a very unfair starting point that allows certain people to snowball rapidly. When I did my airdrop, I had a cap and then future airdrops were based on performance in the community.

But acid, why should I buy up my own token I spent 500 hive to create when I can just give myself x% of the starting supply, silly.

Heheh, if only it was 500 Hive. It's more like 6,000-10,000 depending on what options you choose (i.e. NFT, Proposals, LP Pool).


While I mostly agree most of the Hive Engine tokens are shit, there are a lot of reasons for that. A big reason is Hive goes up in price and Hive Engine tokens go down in price to reflect that, Hive goes down in price and Hive Engine tokens don't really go up in price. They just keep going down and don't recover as there is no buy pressure.

I suspect this is mostly due to the fact most Hive Engine tokens are dumped and most don't keep them. They are considered "extra rewards on my post" and not much more than that. This creates endless sell pressure driving the price down.

With STEM I am aggressively burning tokens to burn as much as 100% or more of the weekly inflation. I have a few ways I do this, the main reason behind it is we just don't have enough people for a STEM community to thrive, so I don't want to just inflate tokens for no reason. STEM is already the lowest inflation out of all tribes, and with the burn there is almost no inflation at all. Without a large stable userbase, it doesn't really matter, no one cares and thus nothing happens. Solid tokenomics mean nothing without demand and users.

A major reason Hive Engine tokens are the way they are is the small user base on Hive. Leo did really well because everything Leo does is on topic of Leo, LP pools, wrapped tokens, it's all Leo topics. No one in a Science/Tech community gives a damn about LP pools, wrapped tokens, so it's far harder to make those type of services take off.

The reason a lot of tokens likely don't have more value is because it's virtually impossible to justify. Leo spent something like $20K USD to build their front end, and far more for all their "add-on" services that really only fit in a Finance themed commyunity. For STEMGeeks outside of the initial sale of miners, it loses money monthly, there is no absolutely no revenue stream. None of these communities have enough views to make ad revenue work.

I don't see anyone buying NFTs through Tribes (aka Outposts) as much as aggroed say they are going to get rich doing so.

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I can't see proposals paying off either, there isn't much to vote on that a simple post can't handle.

Most LP Diesel pools have no volume except for splinterlands ones. So unless you dig out of your pocket and bribe people to put into it, there isn't much going on here except the cost to set it up.

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For my community STEM, I can't justify dumping a ton of money into it when no one is really using it. The entire market cap right now is $20K, what am I going to do when there is no revenue stream and just a handful of users using it. I'd put the tokenomics of STEM against any token out there on Hive Engine, but again it doesn't matter without users.

I can go on and on, there are really so many reasons for this, but the most critical is the size of the userbase and a lot (if not most) just sell off the rewards immediately.

To be honest, I dump most Hive Engine tokens automatically and only hold the ones I care about (or most honestly in the sunk cost fallacy department). I lost tens of thousands of dollars from what I did buy that I know I will never remotely come close to make up. Every day I say I should just dump it, but the market can't handle it and the price is so low already.

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It would be nice though if more whales took an active interest in what we do down here though, wouldn't you say Marky? You're great, but there's only one of you.

I sort of wonder how we would fair if more took an active interest. I've always said more liquidity would make us more popular, and give us more options, but hey if even @aggroed can't be arsed spending a little bit on what he created, what chance to we have, ey?

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Wow that marketcap makes me want to buy some!

I think fund token model is a way to succeed (over community token), although these types always require trust in a 'fund manager'. There is still time and experimentation needed to make more and better projects, and along the long road of dead tokens there are a lot of lessons to be learned.

Good job to you that your project is 'not dead yet'!

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Incredibly helpful article for me...I was considering buying up medium size portions of a bunch of second layer tokens and staking them... but it sounds like it wouldn't be that smart to spend money on them

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I am a firm believer you can make money on any token if you buy and sell at the right times. I would do your research when investing in Hive Engine (or any other tokens).

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Thanks. Very informative article. The Hive Engine is a great tool and so are the layer 2 tokens. It would be great if we could grow it, not just in STEM, but for liquidity and users in many of the communities.

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Great post Marky. How do you dump Hive-Engine tokens automatically? This could be a great service you can make money on. :))

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there are very good sentences in this article that I would like to remark:

I suspect this is mostly due to the fact most Hive Engine tokens are dumped and most don't keep them. They are considered "extra rewards on my post" and not much more than that. This creates endless sell pressure driving the price down.

That one is totally true. Tokens associated to rewards when tagging will always fall under this stigma: As a payment.

A major reason Hive Engine tokens are the way they are is the small user base on Hive. Leo did really well because everything Leo does is on topic of Leo, LP pools, wrapped tokens, it's all Leo topics. No one in a Science/Tech community gives a damn about LP pools, wrapped tokens, so it's far harder to make those type of services take off.

Even if you are a scientist, musician, or artist, what is the main reason to be posting at HIVE? Being the owner of your content and getting paid, people are investing here, and the main token after HIVE that is known by investing attributes is LEO, so it is normal to be one of the top popular tokens here.

STEM is interesting for being the only token that I know that rewards scientific content. Hopefully, it could bring more professionals and people interested in the topics that STEM brings
!PIZZA

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(Edited)

It's good to hear the user volume thing articulated like this. My instinct for growing the Scholar & Scribe community (and by extension, demand for tokens) has always been split between creating utility & driving membership. And not just new subscribes, but net new Hive users that get their onboarding experience with Hive (or even web3) from the community itself. Cheers 🍻

!PIZZA

cc: @dibblers.dabs

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Lack of demand
No use case
No ad or any type of revenue being generated

The biggest issue is no revenue being generated to power the value of the token. The token needs to be treated like a business and running a business in my opinion thoughts on that?

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Tribes don't have enough traffic to generate any real ad revenue, maybe $1-2 a month, not enough to change anything.

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But they have the possibility that they could over time like LEO has. Granted it was targeted to some type of niche? For example oneup for gaming has a lot of potential for a lot of traffic if some focus work went into it?

What other ways can a layer 2 token gain value or inject value?

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Leo has a huge advantage that every person on this platform is interested in that niche. All other tribes are working with a small sub section of a small community.

When most people don’t participate much in general so even those who are in a tribe a lot are not active.

Development costs time and money and innovation even more, when the entire market cap of a token is like $20k you really can’t really do much. Especially when everyone is just dumping.

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yes leo was smart to tap into the niche and maintain it's survival but it's also quite limited in growth. means everyone who comes here has to cover only financial topics so it can never be open to the general population or artist and if it tries to expand it's going to probably be limited to hive payment gateways etc.,

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I'm pretty much a complete noob when it comes to tokens, but damn, I never thought it cost that much to create a Hive Engine Token.

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To create a Hive Engine token is only 100 BEE, but to create a Tribe/Outpost (where you have a reward pool) it's 6,000-10,000 BEE.

A token alone isn't very useful unless you build something for it.

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Damn! Thanks for the info! I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the creation of tokens and that.

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I got vyb as an airdrop. Its worth was in thousand of dollars. As the project announced that the tokens are for keeping and not for selling,I didn't selml a penny. Now the worth for those tens is a few dollars, even when I have double of them now.

Similar thing happened to pob. Its worth decreased and decreased. I have heard that worth of crypto increases by hodling. I have always done so, but it has always gave me losses. Those who dump tokens get the most benefit. They don't care about the community at all.

The only Hive-engine token (other than leo) I have faith on is dreemtoken by @dreemport

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This is pretty typical, a token generally has a higher starting price due to launch and fomo, then a lot of people dump the airdrop immediately and it if the token doesn't have a strong value people continue to sell it. Tribes tokens are heavily sold off due to fact they are free so people tend not to value them much and most people don't really care about the token itself, just the rewards they bring.

Pob/Vyb are also a general community token, which tends to be sold even more often once the initial high ROI wears off.

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Being free is an important reason for the tokens being not valued.
The jest I have got is that only tribe and topic rigid tokens (such as Leo and SPS) may be out of the list of shitcoins

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Same thing I experience. I never sell but it happens those who sell early are the only ones who benefit in the end.

Oh well, this is why I stick with the native hive

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It hurts a lot that the unfaithful opportunist get the most benefit

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We've seen the playbook for billions of dollars shitcoins getting sold outside of the HIVE ecosystem. It's not like those people have been special or super smart all the time. People expect to be pitched properly, get some tools to buy and sell and want to be able to buy them really quick on their phones. I don't see any of those things possible for HE Tokens. On top of that, you're absolutely right, it's thousands of Hive to really build them out.

While you had the Punks on Hive launch going on, we could all see that a good NFT collection can be worthwhile to launch on HE as well. But you had to build a lot of parts yourself and now we're still sitting around wondering how to calculate the resources needed to launch an NFT Collection on HE. We've seen NFTs on Solana explode due to how easy and resource-efficient it is to launch on that chain. Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about the number of collections launched - not about commercial value or sustainability.

It should also be true that the HE Team is really focusing on other things than evolving HE into a mass appealing product. But I'm sure you have a big Bucket List of features that they never provided for you as well.

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To be honest I really want to see native tokens and nfts for Hive. I built Hive Punks to show what was possible.

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it needs a culture around the nfts and tokens.

A plug-and-play solution would be cool for minting them + a hive wide standard used for it.

1 dapp could display all nfts if needed.

100 different ways make everything more complex for no reason

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bitcoin myk doesn't require a payment gateway to earn tokens and acts as an easy transitioning situation to hive accounts etc.,

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I hope that as the bear market progresses and people get bored with Hive there will be more HE token action

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Thanks for sharing. Now I understood more about Hive engine. It’s going to be worse when people disappearing from the platform in the future. Hive is still a very good solution to financial independence. But it does take so many players in a winning team.

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(Edited)

I think ape mining itself is already worth 100k. That game has graphics, excitement & cooporatation. Ape mining

All in all just hodl many coins arent going to be profitable even though some people made 100* on Leo some yrs ago.

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@acidyo 72% of Americans Support Some Form of Universal Basic Income (UBI)

https://www.magnifymoney.com/news/universal-basic-income-survey/

i know marky mark is a dumbass so maybe you'll listen to reason.. you may ask why bitcoin myk?

i can prove bitcoin myk has hundreds of thousands of dollars of technology developers would charge to create

in other words bitcoin myk is valuable due to it's unique distribution system to solve this demand. the system can take various tasks you do and individually assign a value to it automatically and distribute ubi.

hive engine will never have the buyers.. hell hive won't get them for much longer. we now need systems like this to solve a major demand issue. bitcoin myk doesn't need to be about price appreciation but a stable currency. i think that's the only hope but i also think there's going to form many ubi coins that will then create a coalition together and we'll all be able to monthly collect tokens from each one of value from it being an overall stable currency and being accepted globally because everyone will have the incentive to hold it. so the use case is in faciliting the distribution of ubi in fairness done by an ai

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Who asked

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@acidyo you piece of shit! all you hive whales are all the same. i'm trying to save these people inflation on the boots of their necks nobody to rescue them i'm their only hope their only savior and you don't care if they get rekt you don't care about solutions you miserable piece of shit you

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how's that for charisma @edicted lol.. let me tell you all something.. i could give a shit about elon musk but do i want a tesla? yes i do

why do you need to trust anybody in a system predicated on trustlessness give the fuck out of here... bitcoin myk gives you all the coins free if you understand anything about network effect and the value of a stable currency you'd get that and understand the price doesn't need to move up einsteins but i know you all don't understand this economy which is why you all lose your money gambling in these crypto projects. listen to me edicted a messiah has to be alone has to walk alone

nobody can walk my path but me and i'm prepared to do this alone like every other messiah was.. i don't need you all to assist me i need you to follow me and you will because this economy is over and so is america and everyone else is dropping like dominoes and if you join any ubi project they still all represent me you can never escape me

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It's more like 6,000-10,000 depending on what options you choose (i.e. NFT, Proposals, LP Pool).

:(

sounds like a sector that could use some competition on hive

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Watch out for the human traffickers at hivefest. You wont know it until its too late. STAY AWAY! Beware, traffickers can be women or men! They will act nice until they dont. There is human trafficking going on around this type of crypto. I have witnessed it. They literally have attempted my murder and are trying to kill me with V2K and RNM. Five years this has been happening to me, it started here, around people that are still here. Homeland security has done nothing at all, they are not here to protect us. Dont we pay them to stop shit like this? The NSA, CIA, FBI, Police and our Government has done nothing. Just like they did with the Havana Syndrome, nothing. Patriot Act my ass. The American government is completely incompetent. The NSA should be taken over by the military and contained Immediately for investigation. I bet we can get to the sources of V2K and RNM then. https://ecency.com/fyrstikken/@fairandbalanced/i-am-the-only-motherfucker-on-the-internet-pointing-to-a-direct-source-for-voice-to-skull-electronic-terrorism ..... https://ecency.com/gangstalking/@acousticpulses/electronic-terrorism-and-gaslighting--if-you-downvote-this-post-you-are-part-of-the-problem if you run into one of them you may want to immediately shoot them in the face. 187, annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, behead, bleed, bludgeon, boil, bomb, bone, burn, bury, butcher, cap, casket, choke, chop, club, crucify, crush, curb, decapitate, decimate, deflesh, demolish, destroy, devein, disembowel, dismember, drown, electrocute, eliminate, end, euthanize, eviscerate, execute, explode, exterminate, extinguish, finish, fry, grind, guillotine, gut, hack, hang, hit, ice, implode, incinerate, kill, liquidate, lynch, massacre, maul, microwave, mutilate, neutralize, obliterate, off, pop, poison, punnish, quarter, ruin, shank, shock, shoot, shred, skin, slay, slaughter, smoke, smother, snipe, snuff, squish, stab, strangle, stone, suffocate, suicide, SWAT, swing, terminate, torture, terrorize, whack, waste, wreck. You better fucking kill me.

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Hey Marky, I like STEM, my dad joined Hive because of the STEM community. He doesn't use it as much and hasn't published yet but as a Microbiologist, he really liked the idea.

My interaction with my dad made me realise that while there's a tokenised aspect of STEM, there's an immense value that can be derived from the project.

Ironically, STEM suffers something similar to DPORN, in that, there are numerous established alternatives to the very niche-based platform. So the only way you can actually trap the attention of users is to make it as similar to the Web2 platforms as possible.

For example, STEM as a community could throw in a Google login plug that makes it easier for academics to interact with publications and also mandate that individuals who publish perform some form of verification to ensure they know what they're doing. Academics like reading from verified sources and in the long run, STEM could evolve into a database/publishing centre like Researchgate. It has to start somewhere.

STEM could do with some marketing as well. Now I don't mean outright marketing that costs thousands of dollars; I mean organic social media interactions through Twitter, Facebook and the likes.

STEM could eventually liaise with universities that have a vested interest in Blockchain technology, participate in conferences about blockchain in the education sector, and stuff like that.

I've always believed that the token price or market cap is not a true measure of the value of a project. The price of STEM tokens doesn't reflect the huge potential that the project has. If you're interested, I think we can rub minds to bring more attention and eyes towards STEM.

I'm just a discord message away. belemo#9593

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This is all so true as the majority see the tokens as extra rewards and dump them. Maybe I am a sucker as I keep 99% of everything hoping there is a chance and by staking am helping the various communities. I get the number of users is not great and always hope they will arrive at some point.

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the size of the userbase

Dwindling when we keep booting people off the platform.

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No one has been booted off

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I mean squeezed out? or driven out? or made like their unwelcome?

Something like that. Just stating what I have observed.

We all human so, there will always be tensions and bias. It is easy to look at the statement I cut out and just comment on it as a part of a bigger picture. In this case userbase, slowly dwindling with of course the hope that there are also people signing up.

There are some people I think should be squeezed out, but then I just end up muting them so I don't have to interact with their existence. I haven't had to do it to a lot of people and that is the beauty of hive. There are no algorithmic decisions made by an AI to tell me who I should see. Hence my non facebook existence. That was not healthy for the nuggin.

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No clue what you are talking about.

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All good it's not directed at you, just saying it as a whole. Within the platform. Various parties. Various circumstances.

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Usually they leave on their own because they can’t farm rewards. The only thing someone can do is remove rewards and most of the time it is justified. Not always but most of the time.

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I just hope cooler heads prevail.

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Get to know Marky and his scummy downvote circle, that are terrorizing all of Hive! Marky downvotes self voters where he can, APART from his bootlickers! His 'circle', as I call it, is protected by the accounts themarkymark and buildawhale! Learn how they operate - Learn how they could mob you off of Hive here:

https://hive.blog/hive/@networkallstar/how-the-downvote-beast-themarkymark-is-ruining-this-ecosystem-while-his-own-posts-are-the-biggest-heap-of-on-hive

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Overall I think retention is the key to sustainability.

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I think the h-e tokens take pressure off the hive moonshot.
Were hive to actually have one.
At some point, people trade in the surviving h-e tokens because the price of hive is too high.

I'm still blaming the stinc walkabout for squandering our new token on the block excitement.

I think our time in the sun will come when the sec shuts down some of the vc's and folks need a place to park all that crapital.
Presuming the pitchforks and torches crowd can be held within a bankster system.

If not, then we are well positioned to trade in a barter economy, too.
Permissionless money will make debates on the finer points of crowd management moot, in many ways.

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I have plenty of Hive Engine tokens I haven't sold, only because their price is so low that I don't bother unstaking them. I actually like many projects, their missions, and what they are about. But that is all secondary because my primary concern is getting the Hive Power, growing, and spreading upvotes to people and content I like. I usually use only Ecency and Peakd front ends. Don't use various front ends where I can upvote using the staked tokens, so I don't have much motivation to grow the token power.
In a weird way, I like many of those tokens, but don't feel incentivized to use them in any meaningful way.
Leo finance has some cool value, but there isn't much I can say about the finance, so nothing for me there either.
Lassecash bombastic announcements are often pretty crazy, delusional, and surreal 😀so they provide plenty of accidental entertainment value - I must admit that.
And that's it. My few thoughts about tokens, and how I use them - or more often, not.

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POB clones are all useless.

Except I start the Onlyfud front-end subscription model in combination with POB!

From Fuders to Fud enjoyer

Close to all POB tokens on HE are ponzis.

Content must be exclusive + advertisements are needed to value the community.

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I agree on this post (except for the meme, come see us at entrypoint saturday 1 UTC we will have a meme workshop to help people make much much better memes), perhaps you should have also confronted the centrality of SSC (hive engine) and how people still think its going to be decentralized (it isn't), when it comes to people who can affect the price in a big way, centrality plays a big role in how they see their potential investment.

I think you would agree with me that we'd be better off opening the internal (bitshares style) market of steem to simply allow more currencies, there's already working RPC and GUI in place for it, and it would be layer-1, decentralized and have a fast track to being allowed by exchanges and governments.

If you want to see what that looks like, you just have to trade HBD for HIVE, you'll see the marketplace, this can be very easily made to allow further currencies, graphene was designed this way.

What's your thoughts on opening hive's restrictions on currencies to accept more than just HBD as an additional token?

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