Why does Nobody care About Bullying on Hive?

in Palnet5 months ago

You are probably thinking... "Not another downvote whining blog post, please..." Well, if it was thought about it more, and adjusted from the moment of implementing them, we will not have this kind of posts... I'm not a 3-year member here, but I was here before downvotes, and I'm still here when they are around...

bullies on hive.jpg

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I do understand the main point of implementing downvotes to the Hive system, and I do support the MAIN PURPOSE of them... I didn't have problems with them because "I was playing by rules"... But is that really enough to be "safe" from downvotes?

Well, unfortunately, it isn't... The problem with new rules, laws, or whatever you want to call them, is that after some time people find the way to "go around them", or in our case severely ABUSE them...

In this post, I'm not talking about downvotes used for punishing plagiarism, or spam on the network... I'm talking about the problem of abusing of downvotes system by big Hive Power holders, aka. whales... Luckily, this problem isn't widespread too much, but even one-two cases of abusing the power can cost a lot our whole network...

I don't want to talk too much about the examples of abusing and whine about it... I would like to raise awareness about this problem and try to engage some kind of discussion on how can we prevent malicious abuse and maybe implement it in our "blockchain code"...

I'm not a big HIVE Savvy, but a few days ago, I've got into a conversation about reputation on Hive, and how it is actually just a number that doesn't mean a lot... Then I bumped to one obvious Whale downvote bullying on the Hive and connected some dots... And I would like to make a question for all of you out there...

Is it possible to implement in code that VALUE of someone's DOWNVOTE is depending both, of its REPUTATION AND its HivePower?

For example, if someone has a LOW reputation and high HivePower, it means that he isn't a reputable member, and tends to do bad things to others, but he CAN BULLY other members... This is not the right approach... It like giving a gun a serial killer...

Maybe it is not politically correct (but I wouldn't agree with that), but it would be some kind of protection from the "bad actors" in the system (as we don't have anything like that)...

I hope that we can start a healthy discussion about this important problem.

Thank you for your valuable time,

~ph~

Take care,

~ph~


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I have been saying the same thing about the down vote metric since the very beginning. I always relate it to the political system we see in the United States and how it’s controlled by money and under the table deals the public is not aware of. I make assumptions that it is similar on any of these platforms which are controlled by money or investment alone. I consider witnesses to be investors in that respect while also being the controlling party, see the potential for conflict of interests there?

After many discussions I have come to the conclusion that reputation alone will not be enough of a factor. An entire system derived over allowing individuals to control the content on the platform must be built over top of the current system of rewards. Truly decentralized in nature outside of the control of the people who wish to upkeep the network. I am a witness on another chain and if the idea was put forward and seemed feasible I would accept it knowing that people who wish to use our platforms know what’s best for them.

It looks that when you have to limit others, the solution can be found... But, we sometimes need a solution to protect us (and others) from ourselves... I know that it looks suicidal action, but it can be done on everyone's benefit...

As you said, witnesses (and large accounts) are investors and should "keep an eye" on "peasants" (us...) as this whole thing can't work between 20 people on the top of the chain...

And I agree that reputation itself can't be a factor, but it can be combined with some other metrics... I can't believe that it is not possible to do... Of course, IF THERE ARE WILL to do it...

Possibly a re-imagination of development in how to offset abuse from the base code up ... stake based control seems to dictate that those with stake may also bend the rules as they are the enforcing parties also ... enforcement leads to flag wars thus they tend to ignore each other 🤔 how can that be accounted for in a metric is what needs to be addressed but I doubt any of them would willingly give up their control of the platform

Just to be clear... I have nothing against people that have high stakes to lead this chain into a good way... Limiting someone's positive creativity is a crazy thing, but limiting ourselves to do stupid, negative things would be actually a good move...

But, maybe I'm too utopian... :)

Moving to a tipping rewards system is the only real way ... would also stop people from voting themselves or creating secondary accounts to do so ... look at Whaleshares the problem is solved just required willingness of controlling parties to give up their ability to rape the rewards pool and limit others ability to be rewarded.

well, we have a tipping system, we will see how it will be adopted... I wouldn't give up so fast on the main Hive idea about the rewards, but we need some adjusting...

but, as you said... someone should give up his "rights" to do this thing better, and that will be hard to happen

You know my story. It's been nothing but defeating. Even when playing by the overseers rules, I still end up being downvoted. All because I just wanted to help people learn about HIVE...

I'm trying to remain positive. I really am.

hmmm i wasn't aware of that experience. yeah, it's still sucking on certain levels for sure....any idea how to fix it?

whales need to step up. or we will have to find and develop protection for accounts that get hurt. thinking of some options. :)

Yes, I know... The problem is that "smaller" authors have nothing as a "protection" from this kind of abuse... and that's not a healthy system...

100% agree!

This whole downvoting concept is a big problem because it favourises the big vs the small. It means that no minnow will downvote a bigger account because in retaliation he will be losing. The whole system is asymetric and it induces that big token holders should have the role of playing the police on the blockchain. Whales won't donvote whales but will go on to tackled small users. This is why the whole concept is biased and not helpful. In addition having free downvotes makes it even worse.

A solution might be that the downvote is linked to reputation only. Let's say 10 users with reputation over 50 downvote a post. It looses 10% of it's value. Users with reputation lower than 50 can't downvote. This would prevent the creation of new accounts just for this purpose. This would be much fairer because it's not the economical weight that matters in these downvotes but the reputation on the blockchain and everybody (above 50 reputation) would have an even downvote value.

That is an interesting proposition... Maybe a bit complicated than what I have imagined, but it's an idea... It would be great that we have more discussions about this topic...
But, we will have to wait for at least a couple of "whale awakening" :)

Without some very heavy weight whales not much can be done here ;-)

you are right.. the next step is to get the attention of some of the whales... :)

In the real world, people with power can do anything they want and get away with that, they set the rules, sometimes you have to accept that. You try to skip that, that's why you are on blockchain-based social media, Unfortunately, you might see similar things.

In spite of having some issues, blockchain-based platforms are much better. We are moving towards something better. Good people are always the majority. Things will get better day by day.

Well, I don't like the current "real world" setup... :) I think that people deserve much better than we have at the moment... To be honest, I have never been more pissed off more about the current state of collective mind in the world than it is at this very moment...

The time of big awakening have to come once and we have to change our way of living and thinking (at least those who want to think) :)

There needs to be risk and penalty for those who use the down vote for any other reason but its intended purpose. Let's say you down vote someone ... if a significant number of people contest the downvote and they need to be able to do it anonymously ... so there is no fear of retribution, the penalty is applied to the down-voter and not the poster. They will have the drop in reputation and penalty applied to their next payout. This works as an equalizer and limits bullying/abuse and down vote wars. It also returns HIVE to the general pool. There could even be a list for posts that have been down-voted so that those inclined could take part ... anonymously ... one vote per person. This approach maintains the investor's stake but also gives power to the average Hivian and makes everyone think twice before abusing the system.

You are right! And your ideas are a great starting point for a wider discussion about it... Maybe it's not possible to integrate it all inside the code, but something CAN be done, for sure...

At this particular moment, the members are divided between Gods and Citizens... and the Gods (whales) can do whatever they want without fear of consequences, and that isn't a good way of thinking... As I already said, a lot of power should go with more responsibility, which is not always a case...

On the other side, living in fear of abusers is limiting freedom of expression, creativity, and a lot of other important things... And that is unacceptable for one decentralized platform that wants to be a role model for free speech and freedom in general!

Does bring up the value call of equity versus equality. There is no justice without a certain amount of equality.

The rep system is hella broken anyway so factoring that in and at what percentage can still be gamed! I think we’re trying to solve a now problem that is only solved with time this only tries to paper over the real problem and that is the distribution and onboarding

The larger the middle class the more single bad actors lose power! The system isn’t broken it’s just not reached it’s scale yet

I can agree with the part of your comment... But, on the other side, if we have abusers that are counterproductive, we will never reach that "ideal" distribution and solve the onboarding problem...

Yeah for sure, but don’t be afraid to trust the market, each fork or each project is a path that gets us somewhere! Im not overly attached to hive like that,if people want to keep it a little club and circle jerk by all means the complacency will see another blow past it!

There will always be people that for some pathological reason just want to inflict pain, hurt, damage and annoyance on others, it is what feeds them and they delight when people are annoyed by it.

My experience is that when ignored on the whole they will go away,
Unfortunately though the technology of Bots means that set and forget can be implemented and some down voters do just that,
Even their initial reasons for instigating downvotes is forgotten, they just know they can wreak havoc

#engageonhive

Yes, this

Unfortunately though the technology of Bots means that set and forget can be implemented and some down voters do just that,

is our main problem... and some of the pathological cases here are feeding themselves with the problems (or suffer) of others... and we can't just wait for them to give up...

This is one of those problems that will never go away and has no easy answer. As you said in your post, establishing rules just challenges some to find a way around them and abuse that knowledge. I wish I had a suggestion but I don't.

That's true... There is no easy answer as there is no easy button for our problems... But, to solve the problem, we have to be aware of its existence, discuss it, throw ideas how to solve it, and finally, take the best answers and mix the "best-solution-potion" :)

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