Should hive remove the vote reward pool?
This should be a controversial one.
What is Hive right now?
Where do we see hive in five years?
It's interesting because a lot of people see a lot of different things.
Proof of stake is an interesting concept and stake weighted voting is one part of the Hive blockchain.
With twenty elected community witnesses and then backup witnesses this part of the chain works quite well and is one side of our hive power.
Hive power gives us a say in how the chain runs and who is running it. What gets funded from the DAO and how long that it lasts.
All very good uses of our hive power and a solid community ran project. Then the blockchain itself supports text storage, data storage and transfers of assets. Again, nothing controversial here and a great use case of the blockchain.
Then there is the content hosted on layer one and reward distribution. Reward disagreement, post voting, circle jerking, plagiarism, voting bots, downvotes, flag wars ect...
In other words. The issues that we face on the blockchain.
The single biggest source of controversy over the past seven years including the hostile takeover. There has been a lot more people that quit the chain because of rewards and more content produced on voting rewards than there ever was on justin sun.
We have lost tens of thousands of active users over those years. The potential to onboard hundreds of thousands more. Lost revenue, lost investment and lost momentum. STEEM used to be a top five chain. It could still be a top five chain in all probability if we had a different rewards distribution. It's amazing to see how many of the older generation of crypto users have an account or a history with the steem blockchain. It was the start of a lot of peoples interactions with crypto.
This wouldn't have worked in the earliest days as the tools weren't there to support a different way of doing things but voting on content to distribute tokens has not been a success IMO.
What is the alternative.
Become a proper layer one protocol for apps.
Focus on what hive does best. Support the building of innovative and exciting layer two applications that will onboard a lot more people to the system over time.
This is all theoretical as i have no working knowledge of how it could be done but i do remember a post about this a few years ago, i think from @therealwolf that said the same but we were not ready for the switch yet.
Now we are getting a lot closer.
I'm not saying to to remove blogging from the eco-system but instead to move that side of hive onto layer two solutions that can deal exclusively with content creation.
My theory for the future of hive.
- Keep layer 1 as an application and storage layer.
- Change voting rewards to staking rewards.
- The reward pool stays the same but distributed to daily based on your HP.
- Create a proper community/tribe system where anybody can run a tokenized community similar to leofinance.
- Earn your layer two tokens and sell to hive on the markets. Or earn from the apps and buy hive from the markets.
In the simplest terms it would involve changing reward distribution to people who stake hive power and move content from hive onto the layer two apps built onto hive such as leo, 3pseak and peakd.
I know that this would suit a lot of the bigger accounts more than the smaller accounts but it would also provide and incentive for apps and communities to develop into real businesses. It would open up hive to an investment group who get a fixed return while supporting the token.
It would turn our economy on it's head but i think that it is a lot more sustainable in the long term as the incentive is on users to buy and stake hive rather than selling it to earn a good return.
It moves the content onto the second layer and still adds value to the main token.
It removes all of the reward disagreements from hive as a blockchain and instead focuses on it's best qualities.
Fast, free transactions with a strong community of developers.
What we need to make it work?
We would need witness agreement and a hardfork of epic proportions.
We would need real breakaway communities similar to tribes but purpose build for people to run as a business with ad revenue.
We would need proper onboarding options for the apps to become their own separate entities.
We would need more exchange options for all of these tokens to operate as a substantial, stand alone project with real value and liquidity.
We would need developers to build more tools to enable apps to get started without having to do all of the groundwork.
We would need a change of mindset for hive users away from the old practices and stake to earn.
What do you think?
Is this madness?
Would it be a good move?
Where do you see hive in five years?
What is the long term plan?
Thoughts?
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Все идет в правильном направлении!!! я нахожусь в разних блокченах и Hive для меня лутший.Я перешел на блокчейн 2 уровня и доволен нашел для себя 2 сайта и доволен.
Though question, maybe you’re right, but it would change the dynamics completely. I don’t think the community is ready for such a blunt move…
Definitely not in the short term but I do see it happening at some stage down the line. Maybe in 5 years or so.
Even then it would take years to plan and argue about to get there. It will be interesting to see how the main Devs move forward for the next couple of years and if this question is brought up properly.
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No, I think that the majority of users would object to a move like this right now.
I do think that it will happen down the road but it would happen slowly in a few different changes to reach a new reward distribution model.
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This is a conversation that can start the new and improved Hive. There is one problem. Posting and earning from it are the centerpiece of hive. Changing that will change what #hive stand for. #layer two is another ball game altogether.
At least this is a conversation starter to help layer two to move forward with #hive.
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That is one of the questions that i posed above. What is hive.
Our biggest app is a game that has no say on the reward pool in splinterlands.
The top earners here are the witnesses for the work in the background.
If you are a blogger using peakd would it make much difference that you earn hive or peak tokens for your content if they had the same value at the end of the day?
It's a conversation to have.
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This is a discussion worth having.
Unfortunately, as a small account I don't agree with this idea, even though I recognise all the failings of the current system. I feel it would be better to create tools to identify plagiarism, and to give users more tools to deflect abusive behaviour directed at them. Tweaks to the current system (particularly around downvotes) are something I could get behind.
However, I feel what we'll see here is a clear split between those who came to Hive through games or Dapps, and those (like myself) who came to Hive as an alternative social media and blogging platform.
For social media users, a key part of the message is that we are no longer just a product, that we can be rewarded for contributing. The current reward system is a combination of financial commitment (stake) and time commitment (author/curation rewards). Take away the rewards, and what we'll end up with is the biggest accounts getting ever bigger as they hoover up all the HP. There'd be little chance for smaller accounts to catch up, and no incentive to stay active. Trying to re-focus rewards on Layer 2 tokens just creates fragmentation and a level of complexity that may deter ordinary users.
I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to do. But with no rewards for activity, Hive will rapidly become a purely Dapps platform and the social media side will either die or be forced to fork off into something totally separate.
It's ok to disagree. This is all about a good discussion.
I came here as a small accounts and a blogger as well but after 5 years on hive have learned a lot and have seen a lot of issues.
I love the blogging aspect of the chain and only think that it should be kept separate to the main functions of the technology. That new bloggers join hive through peakd, earn peak tokens and then can be traded for hive to power up which will earn a nice interest from the reward pool.
A very good idea for a quick improvement in the current system.
I think the exact opposite for this point. I find it much easier for a new user to join leofinance. Earn leo tokens and feel a lot more like a web2 site while being rewarded for contributing. I think that hive is far too complicated for new users because it's mix of everything.
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No no no.
It is somewhat true, but it is not unique to Hive.
Moving blogging to second layer apps could help achieve some goals. Second layer apps can be centralized and as such can make their content exclusive. It means they could f.e. effectively introduce ads (and share part of the revenue with their users, which might actually be more than what they could gain now on Hive). With blogging on first layer it is not really possible, because users would likely gravitate away from front-end with ads.
Centralized apps with exclusive content could become closer to other platforms like Reddit, Twitter or Facebook, because they could moderate user content bringing a bit of order and weeding out bad actors. But being able to moderate means being able to censor or shape the narrative. Moderated user content is no longer user content. The inability to censor users no matter how much we disagree with them is the strong feature of Hive. But of course in such environment there will be people that abuse the freedom with plagiarism, nonsense and lies or "hate speech" - they can be downvoted into oblivion (which takes away their financial incentive), but they can't be silenced.
Comment rewards pose other important role. They let "ordinary people" gain exposure to Hive without any monetary investments or even financial knowledge. Every actual user (aka not a bot) can collect some Hive over time just by talking about whatever interests them. Sure, it would not be possible to live off of blogging on Hive, but that might actually be a good thing. With many users having small sums it is unlikely they would care to try and sell - it is simply not worth the effort. It means a bit less concentration of power. Because SMTs were supposed to have similar mechanism (distributing tokens through comment rewards which is healthy, "organic" type of distribution), if only they were finished they could be used to provide mechanism for second layer governance (tokens tied to apps/communities as a mean of decentralized control).
Personally I don't like curation rewards, I think we could even be charging people for votes rather than rewarding them for it. But everything in due time. For now such rewards are necessary to keep the engine going. Sort of how super high interest rates on HBD are there to encourage investments.
By the way, stake holders already get part of inflation as interest (price of VESTs increases over time).
I’ve seen this idea floated several times, and hate it more each time that it comes up.
Exactly. And for all the times I’ve seen the idea floated, I’ve yet to see a single minnow who liked it.
You're not wrong but that could be amended a bit to say that the current system also favours the larger accounts.
At least 90% of new users that have come to hive leave very soon after due to the unequal rewards system that auto votes the larger accounts or get a down vote from a larger account.
Never get their content seen and then leave forever.
The current system doesn't work and hasn't worked.
However a new user that lands through Leo or splinter talk can earn their layer two tokens through a moderated community and trade for hive to stake. That hive will earn more hive and they will be better off in the long run without having to try and figure out hive or go whale chasing.
A bigger issue would be creating value for layer two projects but that's a totally different problem that would require a lot of development.
I didn't like this idea when I heard it the first time either but it has grown on me after seeing years of issues with the existing one. What we have won't scale and probably isn't sustainable.
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How can we know that with any degree of certainty? People might leave for a bazillion reasons. Maybe they didn’t like the time commitment, maybe they saw too many posts from others that suggested to them that the site was too liberal/conservative for them, maybe they found that the learning curve was too steep for their tastes, maybe they didn’t like the fact that most of their FaceBook “friends” weren’t here, maybe the ones who rage quit and post that it’s because of the reward system are a small but very vocal minority.
72% of my facts are 100% right. There are lots of reasons not to continue but i feel that lot of that is tied to the rewards and getting their content seen by others which is also linked to the rewards system.
I don't think that i would be far off in my guess but obviously there are no real figures on it.
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I don't think I like the idea of removing the vote reward pool because it will take away the ability for new users to earn enough HP. Without it, interacting with the blockchain will be tough but I guess it could be alleviated somewhat with RC delegations. However, it just feels like a bandaid to make the people who were here earlier more powerful.
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I think that you'll notice this is already the case. This would actually make them less powerful as it takes away their voting power from content and gives everybody the same chance to earn hive.
They would just need to earn it from any of the other apps and do a swap on the wallet page.
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This is an unpopular debatable opinion it doesn't need to be right or wrong currently. I read countless discussions like this. You might be thinking we all ignore the flaws of the system but there are many users and witnesses working day and night to go on unpopular ways to bring a change. I wanna leave an opinion of a user to you, read for yourself and be assured that these opinions and feedback are needed and appreciated. Have a read:
Code is king meaning once it's implemented it's the objective framework that becomes "law". Of course humans must write it so that's where a good governance system makes the difference so that proposals + community input build a symbiotic healthy system. Like you said though, DPOS won't be going away so in essence elites only have the real say with HIVE development.
I agree with you that we shouldn't think code fixes everything and that's not what I view as a healthy system either since the vision of HIVE is that it's 'rewarding qualify content' so the human element shouldn't be wiped out of the equation.
Yet... Hive is a doosie. Since the blind curation trial system currently in place exists as a replacement for human. Which is more of a life support system that needs constant tweeking because rather than symbiotic, it's more of a parasitic system that drains the life (human element) from the host/Hive.
Making things like HW the patchwork code trying to stabilize life of the Host... but then governed by ego of self appointed rule makers.
It's not a good system at all and it's why Hive is niche. It couldn't possibly handle large adoption and sustain health as is.
And imo.. "elites" don't want that changing since without big changes it's a house of cards if it gets beyond manageable.
Then the other thing is the division of mindsets. Where mobs work to destroy anything perceived as "not playing by the rules" so it's like a waterhole drying out.
If there was abundance of water the activity would be spread out and everyone winning would mean no need to fear destruction.
But since that waterhole be drying out... all creatures are a tight collective and all forms of lashing out takes place since that water "rewards" is shrinking.
Which is what I think elites fear on HIVE. If the platform grows then it's going to dry out much quicker since the code has a ways to go before it could be objectively seen as a superior system to build on. One without self appointed sheriff's dictating the terms of how the game should be played.
Players like j-rize imo are the proverbial 'canary in the salt mine' since they bring forth those flaws outlined. Yet early steemit was once celebrated as "if the code let's you do it then we shouldn't attack winners (exploiters) but instead work to better the system."
That's maybe the fundamental flaw. Some think the system is just fine. But then it will always need "medical procedures" to keep the illusion of a fair platform that lives by "rewarding quality".
See opinions don't have to be right or wrong (imediately), we need to improve the technology continuously and these type of unpopular opinions fuels it. !1UP
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At the protocol level, Hive is pretty awesome. We just need to build on our foundation. Rewards will often create controversy. Wages too. And yet, those don't get removed. EDIT: Not saying Hive rewards are or should be treated as a wage, lol.
I believe making HIVE a governance & staking token only will make it... common. There are so many tokens out there offering the same thing.
Yay! 🤗
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I love these kinds the debates, I've read every comment in this thread haha
I think it's a scary thought and most people hate change. Removing voting rewards would kind of remove the need for HP wouldn't it? Bar as you say, earning based on how much the person has. How would that work with delegations, who would earn from that?
I can see your point about people leaving the chain, thing is though, most people now aren't into writing long posts, and the average person is less interested in reading them. That's why Tiktok, IG and Twitter are so popular. So a lot of people who leave may do so because they aren't getting their dopemine hits fast enough. I know we have DBuzz and I think there's a shorts section on 3Speak.
Maybe focusing on those apps could bring people in and give a home to the ones who like short content, then we'd expand a bit more. Maybe they could have their own coins associated with them that could be sold for Hive and staked.
But then keep Hive for the long form content creators and curators. I'm not sure really. There are some ideas that just can't be crammed into 240 characters, so this blogging side would still have to be the main side of the chain.
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