RE: Can we Lose the HIVE Voting Window?
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The curve would work well if more were out consuming and manually supporting contributions but the five minute window encourages automation. The two don't mix.
At the time before the hardfork that brought about these changes, the culture here needed to change, drastically. The current reward curve made sense. It was there to penalize self voting low effort bunk. The free downvotes might not have been enough to stop it. Now the culture has changed, members act in ways more in line with the spirit of the EIP, in most cases. In some cases the free downvote acts more like a deterrent and does not even need to be used in order to combat abuse/exploits, it's just there, and people know it's there, so they calm the f@ck down.
Maybe now is a good time to take the training wheels off. I know I don't like being penalized when rewarding commentators, especially now with LEO and potential future operations sucking in consumers with rewards. As an independent, I need to be able to compete with that.
I remember the curve arriving and comments decreasing by 80%. It sucked, and even the Dolphins were struggling to have enough VP to give out a 3c comment vote. Now you need to be an Orca to do it.
Now that @arcange has made his HIVE-SQL free, we can easily find this shit. I know @abh12345 knows how to do it, as he's provided me with data before. It can be managed by people here who know and give a shit about quality vs milking.
Don't get me wrong, I like what they are doing.. but is that why everyone is flocking over there? While it may be great, people should stop bashing the utility token, it can be fixed.
Without the Hive token working as it does (plus a few minor improvements), most communities won't even be able to get off the ground. People do tend to follow the money. Subtract Hive rewards from the equation. How well will community x do if their local token is only worth .0002? Removing the Hive reward pool and the layer of protection it provides basically sets up most other communities to fail, since people can't start small, then grow.
If LEO gets wrecked and working for LEO is the only option (no Hive reward pool), that community dies. With Hive reward pool working as a layer of protection, if LEO gets wrecked, it can still rebuild, since all is not lost.
I'm not one for doing away with HIVE rewards, though I know some want it that way and want HIVE just for witnesses. What does that say to the rest of us?
I hope LEO does not get wrecked. I am taking more interest in the tribe-tokens than 6 months ago. Have you noticed, LEO seems to be pulling them up from the mire?
That they have no interest in this project.
LEO should do fine, provided they manage to attract dedicated paying consumers.
Someone pinged me and mentioned I should jump in - I'm personally in favor of removing Hive rewards someday - but someday is the operative word.
Hive is nowhere close to being ready to make the leap to either first or second layer tokenized communities.
Being so heavily involved in building Leo, I know the potential of tokenized communities. Are people attracted there just for the money? Some. But I would argue that the majority are attracted there for the engagement, development and enhanced sense of community. @taskmaster4450 would have plenty to say on the topic of better engagement on LeoFinance. @abh12345 also did a post recently showing LEO as the most engaging app on the chain.
Hive is a wonderful melting pot but that also comes with its own set of issues. A lot of butting heads disagreeing over the most unproductive things. Adding to the discussion of removing rewards - many argue that disagreement over Hive rewards is why they should be removed entirely. Since not everyone will agree that x picture should earn more than y 2000 word blog post.
As an investor and power user of the chain, I just want this place to succeed. Lots of issues need to be sorted before that happens and with LEO, we've built a place where we can just develop, reward content we like and leave the bullshit at the door. Everything we do is stored on Hive. That said, many of us are focusing less and less on the HIVE we earn and more and more on the LEO we earn.
To @nonameslefttouse's point, it will take 100 communities/apps like LeoFinance and a much better tokenization engine to even start the real discussion to remove Hive rewards.
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There isn't the audience for this yet. Finance is a broad subject, if I could do a 'LEO' in my own community which is the smallest of the small nothing would make me happier.
Yep, well it's up to us to make onboarding a seamless process and then do the marketing necessary to attract new users to those signup dialogues.
Metamask signups launched on leofinance.io last month.
This month we're launching twitter sign ups.
For Hive to grow, we need to actually focus on the outside as opposed to the continual insider discussions that continue to steal all the attention
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Would be a shame if that's the reason. I've been in those situations before. Someone complaining about how I only wrote 200 words. The included image/digital artwork took several hours to produce, of course, and showing that image would be the main point of the post, not the words. People not being able to comprehend what they're looking at shouldn't be the ones calling the shots, ruining the experience for everyone.
I was gone for awhile, came back and noticed the art scene died out a bit. Plenty of folks were getting downvoted for being successful, doing a good job, or earning on a platform that pays people. "You're earning too much," they'd say. So these artists just go tokenize their works and sell them now for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars, on another platform.
So the folks who thought people were earning too much not only chased away content creators, but they also closed the door to all of the outside money consumers like to spend on something like art or entertainment in its various forms. Close the door to those consumers, the rest of the businesses (like yours) lose out on potential spill over. Folks are often looking for investors in the Hive token; I've been pointing out for years how those consumers are often ignored, yet that's the largest potential market of investors any cryptocurrency could ask for.
Hive is like a mall; LEO is one of the shops inside the mall. The mall dies if only one or two shops are open, so I agree with you 100% when you say we'll need far more shops/communities/businesses thriving before even considering ditching Hive's current capabilities. But even then, I'm thinking the next 100 shops/communities/businesses would struggle to get off the ground without Hive's main layer of support. I'd prefer to see the mall morph into a skyscraper; many shops, many floors, one door everyone must use to get inside.
Typically, in a mall setting, the security wants to kick out those chasing away the customers. For some odd reason, on Hive, with these strange disagreement with rewards disputes, the 'security' is chasing away the money/customers. I think her name is Karen. Should probably be fired.
P.S. You run a tight ship. Good job.
I 100% agree with this. My personal belief is that we can't make everyone agree that some things are valuable and somethings aren't. To your example, a great artist might spend 5 days painting something beautiful, post it on Hive with a short caption and get downvoted because it's deemed "low quality".
Whereas the LEO equiavelent of an art community would see this post, understand the work that it took to create the art and reward it heavily in their native token. No Hive police to tell them otherwise.
This is a good example. They would indeed struggle to get off the ground without Hive's main layer of rewards - depending on how they operate. Though, if the signup process is easy and the "shops" are smart in how they market their token to new users, then I do not think it's impossible. The current state of infrastructure requires that users jump through a million hoops in order to get started. We've made a lot of changes to the https://leofinance.io homepage and "Get Started" process aimed at solving this issue specifically but this is no easy task and Hive's main layer of rewards definitely makes it easier to get off the ground.
🤣 this is both true and sad. I hope it changes, but I won't sit around and wait for it either. The only thing I can speak for is that LeoFinance tries to invite people in as opposed to chase them away. No Karens up in here.
Thank you. My goal has always been to bring in thousands of new users to this blockchain ecosystem that I've been a part of for so long. 16 months of work on LeoFinance and we're seeing a lot of progress, but much work left to be done.
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The individual out looking for what's not valuable shouldn't be looking for what they personally believe is valuable and have a use for. If I'm investing in a mall, personally, I have no use for that nail salon, but that doesn't mean I should go smash the windows, because behind those windows are the people creating value; butts in the seats, money exchanging hands. Worthless to me but the true value is what others see in it, so it doesn't matter what I think. Value to someone else is still value. That customer then might use those shiny new nails to pick up the latest edition of Taskmaster's Ramblings from your magazine rack on their way out the main doors; an impulse buy that slowly develops into a new hobby. When everything can be accessed in one space, the money trickles down to all the little unseen nooks and crannies. The current Hive trending page is straight up free advertising for every single community. Cheesy advertisements aren't selling the product either. The actual product sells the product.
Another way to look at it is like Hive being the service provider, LEO (any community) being the network or channel, then the content is like the shows on the network. People buy Direct TV, so they can get Fox, in order to watch The Simpsons... then spend all damn day channel surfing, looking for things they had no clue they'd be interested in until it was directly under their nose. Every network gets a piece of the action because of one show that not everybody likes.
I'm rambling because this business model fascinates me. Some folks fail to see the potential in the Hive token acting the way it does because they only see a simple cryptocurrency typically used as something to flip for profit. Once it establishes itself as that service provider, with enough consumer interest it becomes nearly impossible to slow demand for the token. Why are Google and Amazon so big? Because that's where people go to find everything in one place. You want this place to be successful. So do I.
Your goal as a network is to attract thousands. There are thousands of content creators out there with the ability to attract millions. I almost got sick the other day watching Tim Pool livestream with Alex Jones as a guest. Money was pouring in the door, nonstop donations from consumers. Youtube takes a 30% cut, then turned around and deleted the video. The consumers were ripped off, then what they paid for vanished. Hive offers them a far better deal, and so would any network on Hive. The content would still be there since it's the investor's/consumer's choice, plus they could have their money back or spend it elsewhere, yadda yadda yadda. Enough said.