The Frustrations of On-Boarding

in LeoFinancelast month (edited)

It's 7am and I should be in bed. Instead, I am here at my PC writing again. Yesterday I onboarded a new person to HIVE and remembered how hard it was.

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The last time I did this was in the STEEM days (over a year ago) and it took me weeks to get @grindle up to speed. Why is it so fucking hard, it frustrates the shit out of me that the HIVE world is so alien to Facebook users?

@amy-explores is a new HIVE blogger so please welcome her and understand that she does not know the ropes.

I sometimes feel like a week’s course is necessary to get someone up and running on HIVE. This is by no means a complaint and I will always welcome new people on to HIVE especially if they have something to offer.

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…’Amy runs her own Facebook group with 3.8k members. Many of these explorers could get something for their work, there are reasons why they are there.. and not here’…

I have sent Amy all my older ‘Demystifying HIVE’ articles I previously wrote, but there is so much to take in it can be overwhelming.

Maybe we need a community that has a repo of tutorials. @indigoocean did some videos some time ago, but what else do we have?

@nickyhavey is good at doing these, can you help out mate I can’t do it all!

I do feel the still crappy price of our native token is well under what it should be. If this marketing plan of @lordbutterfly’s (which has now been approved) kicks off then we are going to need all the tutorials we can get for the forthcoming masses.

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…' Great.. but where's my password, which key do I use…, they say…'…

Fortunately, @amy-explores was quite determined yesterday to create her own account after numerous obstacles and managed it without much help.

It’s all so alien. Your password is now 4 massive long strings of numbers and keys that you can't possibly remember and which one do I use?

It’s enough to put anyone off and I can hear the mutters of, ‘I really can’t be arsed with all this’ on their remote machines.

So this is short content for me, as I just want to exasperate my frustrations with the difficulty of signing up. It's getting better with Leo Finance, but it's far from perfect.


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What we need is ‘Sign-up with your Facebook credentials', Twitter is good, but Facebook is the killer option and the one HIVE (or LEO) needs.

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If you found this article so invigorating that you are now a positively googly-eyed, drooling lunatic with dripping saliva or even if you liked it just a bit, then please upvote, comment, rehive, engage me or all of these things.

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I planted a flag regarding this here: https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@joshman/dhf-rfp-centralized-hive-sign-in-service-with-password-recovery

Hoping people will come and share their ideas.

Upvoting for visibility.

Sorry, I didn't see the tag in the initial post but saw you tag me in the comments (you put an additional e in the post).

I was all ready to set up a tutorial/beginner's community and have a full guide archive specifically for what your Demystifying Hive series is about around July 2020, except aimed at musicians and music fans.

When I started the campaign on Twitter, a few folks with influence from HIVE thought it would be a good idea to shit all over it on their tweets. Ironically the whale who said "Hive isn't an additional revenue stream, it's a place for long term thinkers" had a pinned post on his own Twitter saying he "earned $20 for a selfie, come join HIVE!" - couldn't make this shit up!

So this gave everyone in my Twitter network that saw it a negative impression and I just shut the Twitter page down with only one post which you can see on my @haveysguides profile.

Naturally, I was pissed for a long time after that so I stopped doing the guides and focused on building my own blog and profile up, sharing my music, crypto posts and generally enjoying myself again.

Having said that...

I could be tempted to work on revamping my old STEEM tutorial guides archive for HIVE where we can just hammer out beginner's articles that comprehensively covers all the basics of getting familiar in the network if there's enough support.

Thankfully, seems there's synergy now between more large stakeholders and I see Hivebuzz have got some tasks on their dashboard set up for newcomers, Jongolson has a full HiveGuide program with CTP so we can co-ordinate with what they're doing and provide a, dare I say it, "central" focal point for newcomers to be pointed to for info.

I still have a post pinned on my profile listing all the niche topic communities I'm aware of to point people to topics of interest - there's 27 communities on there at the moment.

Anyway, now you know why I stopped doing the guides but if we can put together some evergreen blogs, it will serve everyone well. Feel free to message on Twitter or Discord and we can see about putting something together!

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https://peakd.com/hive-163399/@haveysguides/havey-s-guide-to-hive-why-musicans-and-music-fans-should-consider-using-hive

Love this.. I always thought your blagger series was great! I wonder who the twitter troll was, I can guess.

I'll be in touch.

I just posted my 3 years on HIVE which should cover the basics anyone needs to get started with Hive in its current state and I think we joined on exactly the same day!

Onboarding has to be simpler. Ought to be possible to import keys from sign-up straight into Keychain, with prompt to make a safe backup. New users should be directed to some tutorials that cater for different languages. I expect a lot of people give up quickly and we have to avoid that.

I know there have been some efforts on this, but if it's still hard work then more needs doing.

It's going to have to be easier. Users will give it a go and if it's too hard will go away with a mental note, 'too complicated, forget it'. That will stick in their minds forever, even if 2 weeks later it's suddenly much easier due to some new dev work. They won't try again.. it's a one shot thing.

I know there was some talk of 'lite/light' accounts that might be authorised by a Twitter/FB/Google account, but eventually people need to understand keys. Once you set up Keychain it's mostly easy.

There's the technical aspects and then the 'what is acceptable' side. Hivewatchers need to make people welcome rather than scaring them off.

I know there was some talk of 'lite/light' accounts that might be authorised by a Twitter/FB/Google account, but eventually people need to understand keys.

Can this be implemented in Peakd? It would be a start I think.

Hivewatchers need to make people welcome rather than scaring them off.

Yes, I am aware of @hivewatchers, and that's why I stuck my foot in early. She is already verified.

I don´t know why onboarding is so hard but it really is. So far I have brought about 10 people here, maybe a half of them is still active. Retention seems to be just as hard as onboarding.

Good luck to Amy, gonna stop by her blog to say hi :)

You have done a lot better than me, must be extremely patient!

I joined Hive and Leo not too long ago and I gotta say it took some effort. It can even be scary sometimes!

Fortunately, I was lucky to find a great community here in Leo filled with people that are willing to help and answer all my questions, no matter how dumb or basic they are. Not really a surprise though, as it's well known that people are a community's greatest asset.

I do agree, however, that an easier, more user-friendly would help a LOT. Especially if it targets people who have none or very little previous experience with blockchains, crypto, and so on....

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Welcome to HIVE, though you entered through LEO, you are probably aware by now that LEO is a token that trades with the base token HIVE. How did you find creating an account via LEO?

Everyone is friendly here if you are not a plagiarist, scammer and are genuine. It's not hard to figure it out and there are dedicated groups of people who do just that.

I see you have met @steevc already. He was my mentor for many months..., he's a good person to clone when it comes to behaviour here. Enjoy and relax..

I actually entered through Hive, but most of my learning has been here on LEO. Sorry if my comment was misleading!

But it's true, people here (on LEO and Hive as a whole) have been very friendly and helpful.

Ah yes! I met @steevc at the Guitar community. Turns out we are both Tele lovers hehe

But yes, he is a great guy and really helped me with my first steps.

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The last time I onboarded someone I tried to make it really simple.

With Keys I said, export your keys, take a copy of the export and save it somewhere different. Get your posting key and login with that. Forget the rest for the moment.

Then I said, write a post, max once a day at first try to get your tags right by looking at other posts similar and follow some folk from my feed and more if you can find them. I mentioned how important it was to source images or use free ones and NOT to copy stuff from other places

I introduced the active key later.

It worked for a while but yeah, the whole thing is a shitshow for the average user who just wants to post and have fun

It worked for a while but yeah, the whole thing is a shitshow for the average user who just wants to post and have fun

LOL, it's an acquired taste.., like that whisky from up in the Highlands..

Aaaahhhh the taste of mannity you mean! It is a taste that takes a bit to go down :OD

I helped about 5 people join Hive or Steemit and only one of them stuck around.

Even 1 will work, it doubles the population. If everyone could do what you have done, it would be more buoyant. !WINE


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I feel you bud. 3+ years later and I haven't been able to persuade a single person to be part of the Hive fam...

I did manage to persuade a fam member to invest in crypto yesterday though...post incoming

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I have had a little more success, but it's not been easy. Even if they get here, it's keeping them interested. Kudos and likes are important so some, as well as a massive community. Once.. it was much larger here. If the token went nuts, they would come.., some of them for the wrong reasons. !WINE


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I've been on the blockchain for coming up four years. There's still stuff that confuses me. There's a lot I don't know. I was so intimidated at first, I disappeared for well nigh six month until I was lured back. And then I got phished. Somehow, with the help of people like @nickyhavey and the folk in @hivewatchers and the @exxp Wordpress plugin, I was encouraged to hang around.

That the @hivebuzz team is developing a tour/roadmap is very helpful. I believe it deserves support and is long overdue. It's being developed by a credible team and which has the interests of the blockchain and the community at heart.

I know that there are some onboarding communities - here and on the other iteration of this blockchain, and at the risk of annoying people, I am uncomfortable with some of the practices and the tone used with redfish.

I will pop over and welcome @amy-explores

I think this remains an important issue that needs discussion. Thanks @slobberchops

I think that indeed more would be here if someone could sign up with their FB account, maybe in the future this will be implemented
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I don't think that's too difficult nowadays especially with leo. But some people don't actually want to "spend" time learning new things. I had to bring over a couple of friends. Nobody remains here now and there were 2 reasons.

The first one is because as usual, they thought they gonna earn money with minimum effort.

the second one was that they didn't actually bother themselves to learn anything. For example, they didn't know something and instead of searching or trying they simply asked me for the answer.

but what else do we have?

Now regarding that, i had seen tons of tutorials for hive, some games in here, some crypto exchanges and basically anything related to Hive. Due to the structure of hive though it's hard to find these posts after a couple of days pass except if you bookmarked them. I told them in LEO to add a search bar, it would make our lives easier.

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I believe that our HIVE market price should rise properly, I mean lot up to attract these people here, we already have enough projects and systems here that work well here on HIVE world.

But... but I like what you say... it is very true . "the second one was that they didn't actually bother themselves to learn anything. For example, they didn't know something and instead of searching or trying they simply asked me for the answer"

I mean lot up to attract these people here, we already have enough projects and systems here that work well here on HIVE world.

btw regarding the money aspect hive did so well these months but i don't think many realized it. a little bit before the start of the year was 10 cents and a couple of weeks ago reached 40 cents. So someone could have 2x-4x his initials investment! It was almost the same with btc price, profitwise!

but people prefer to see "big numbers" and attracted to it :P

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I share your frustration... Trying to bring more people I know from outside crypto to Hive and the blockchain gaming world and it takes a lot of effort to make them jump through all the loops.

My new strategy for the gaming crowd is now have them make a Splinterlands account, play around with that for a week or two, and only then claim the Hive keys and slowly show them around.

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Via Splinterlands is a viable method, but not everyone is a gamer. That Facebook option is the one.., the thing that will bring people here. It needs to be as easy as signing up for the behemoth itself. The keys can come later.

I know how it feels, I have been lot in this shit do 🤭😂😂 some times I think how it can be hard to use 3 codes . And they say it is easy to use instagram or facebook.... what f..k :))) Facebook-Instagram-Twitter they make these pages as easy as possible. That when you leave their system, the rest of the new pages out there becomes so difficult and difficult to understand even if you are highly educated even though these new things are very simple to use.( This means they will be manipulated you to come back to on simple system pages what they have and they will be able to further collect your personal information for free )The people inside the old systems don't realize that they have been programmed for years to do this shit.

The keys are completely alien. I had to explain that the keys are your passwords.. kind of.

YEs they look like Aliens first time :)) , but if you use them for a while, you will start to see that it is not complicated, it was just scary ideas in your head what maid it look scary, and in the new system the people are always scared to try something new.
The only thing is to not force it on them, then they will refuse everything :)))

Also if you can Give them Ecency app or Ecency on the laptop , it helps them to go in like they going in old pages ;)

I think, there are some good materials there at : https://hiveonboard.com/

And it's best to use @leofinance : https://leofinance.io/

One can use a mobile number and get signed up instantly. Hope that helps. And I also feel the frustration - I convinced my own niece @anusham to join , but she does not find this platform very interesting as well. She likes instagram more.

Thanks for the link. LeoFinance would confuse her more. She's an explorer, not a Finance Wiz! We know the connection but it would be yet another layer of complexity. !WINE


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Totally agree with you.
I too try to promote Hive and the first steps for new users are not easy.
It would take a container (maybe a community) that collects tutorials and guides on Hive
!BEER

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A community is not a bad idea. I'll think about it over the weekend, maybe a collab with @nickyhavey if I can persuade him to put his tutor cap back on.

The frustration can be telling sometimes, I mean being able to appear like a traditional social media is something we aren't on hive yet. I guess its probably because of the complexities with the chain and of course because of the case with security and how people can lose their accounts with hundreds of thousand of dollars. I guess we need to find ways to match somplicity with security. Leofinance is getting there, hive will need to because of onboarding

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This is the reason I don't tout HIVE much.., it's all the hard work that follows. The only reason to use HIVE is ... the money. What other carrot is there? I don't like it.. but I have little choice. If they ask me about it, I will spill the beans. Other than that, I don't do it anymore.

This is the reason I don't tout HIVE much.., it's all the hard work that follows. The only reason to use HIVE is ... the money. What other carrot is there? I don't like it.. but I have little choice. If they ask me about it, I will spill the beans. Other than that, I don't do it anymore.

I used to try and get people to join many years ago. Failed every time.

There is another carrot: the platform cannot zap your account.

My hat is off to anyone who has ever managed to get people to join and stay.

Speaking of joining for the money, an additional hurdle for many is that no significant money will be coming in for quite some time even if one puts in some consistent effort. That is unavoidable and is the case on every single platform out there and always will be.

Hence, a custody service for light accounts is a must. LeoFinance does it fantastically well. A well-guided step by step process to download the keys and storing them automatically on Keychain with instructions to safely store copies of the keys is a must.

I think there already is quite a bit of content to enjoy for someone to want to stay on the platform for content. Peakd has developed a chat functionality integrated into the website.

But I agree with you in the futility of marketing the platform for the masses at this point. Hive is ultimately just a protocol. Apps should be marketed. Getting to understand the platform as a whole should come later.

My hat is off to anyone who has ever managed to get people to join and stay.

This is not looking good on the outside is it? I have a count of two, one is actively posting, the other a passive voter (with a large stash). It's still crap, I want to have added 50 people.

I've tried to get people to join but I gave up quite some time ago. Other people have been more successful than I have. But very few have managed to get people to stay.

I think the difficulty boils down to the complexity of the platform and its immature stage of development. Also, not only is Hive complex but it is that it hits the newcomer with a many novel concepts that are central to its operation, some of which are counter-intuitive. That's when you get questions like "where does the money come from" and when they don't understand they suspect it must be a scam.

The entire Hive ecosystem is currently an early adopter's paradise. Trouble is, only a small proportion of people have the early adopter mindset.

I think it pays to get used to the idea that "the masses" are incredibly slow to adopt new things that require taking even a little bit of trouble to learn.

Just like on Hive, the world is full of hidden opportunities that most people will never take advantage of.

"where does the money come from" and when they don't understand they suspect it must be a scam.

It's printed everyday, new coins ('yeah... it must be a scam, you can't make money'). Most people don't know our 'trusted banks' do exactly the same thing.

That is a good point.

Money is a very difficult concept. But that, too, is changing. Today's teenagers and children are used to virtual currencies in games, some of which have exchange rates against fiat currencies.

After you go through all the effirt, they finally post something only to have sone Hive Zealot or Whale come along and and dump all over them for not having enough text, or a correct Source format and downvote them to zero ... nobody wants to stick around to see what happens next.

Without some help it can happen. I hope the down-voters do a few checks first.. (real account, not another scammer etc..). I know I do before unloading.., there needs to be a very good reason for me to do that.

Perhaps we went in blind originally, step by step holding onto every number thrown at us, pot luck!

Everyone has to tackle learning about importance of the keys unfortunately.

Perhaps using Facebook with an Email address to contact people with an ad-hoc temporary x3 month posting key, full instruction to site guide, as started by @nickyhavey. T

Thanks for links and interesting reading, lost in reading all the comments below and visiting to learn more about what the topic is about.

I can't remember having problems with basic Steemit but I come from an IT background. It all fell into place quickly for me, besides over-voting and finding myself at 29% VP for a while 😀

By the time I reached Steemit I had a local exchange and other bits of experience, still found setup a bit confusing. Hive is that much bigger, we need a best place to start someone new into.

I recently made my sister an account and also realized it is still hard and time consuming.

She never felt like she had time to figure out what needed to be done.

You are in a great position to mentor her, good for you... and it's good to hear that some of us are trying.

Make a centralized login service with password recovery for users to start with. Nobody with 100 HIVE power really gives a shit about 'your keys your coins'. Build a mechanism into it that allows you to change/extract your keys IF your stake grows enough to warrant it.

Is that how Leo's Twitter login works? Anything to make things as simple as Facebook that would not put the 80% off who don't get beyond setting up and account ('estimates are pure guesswork').

Not sure, but you'd basically have to select a centralized hive sign in service when you logged into stuff, so DApps would need to support it.

You did great with onboarding @grindle. He's a valuable member of the urbex and travel communities as well Hive on general, and I'm sure success can be repeated many times over.

Maybe just do it in chunks as newbies don't need to know everything during the first week. All they need to know is the basics to post. Then in week two ease them in slowly.

Less is more in week one I'd say

Thank you for your kind words.

@grindle was hard work..! but I know he likes it here now heh.., it was worth it.

Bloody love it!

What meesterboom said and since we're admitting our confusion, why do our posts only pay for seven days?? Someone help me understand the point in that.

I never picked up a flick or a book that was 8 days old like 'nah... that shits old now.'

It's the time period during which curators can find the post and judge it by giving it upvotes or downvotes.

If the period was much longer than seven days, there would be no additional benefit.

Firstly, thanks for this response.

I understand the curation aspect of blogging and appreciate hot content. Curators and consumers alike share/consume content when it's fresh. But if I find content right now that's a week old or a year old, the point is I missed it when it was released and would like to tip it now.

Has there ever been ideas kicked around that would allow voting to exist as long as the blockchain exists?

You actually can tip old content through Peakd. What you can't do is upvote it but tip it you can.

Excuse me, I meant upvote not tip. Thank you though for clarifying. Being able to tip past content is better than nothing.

I think the point of limiting the voting period is to encourage the creation of new content. HIVE inflation is limited. The creators of Steem which Hive is a fork of decided it was better to allocate the inflation to reward users for new content.

I've though about that, too. By being able to upvote past content could discourage content producers from producing fresh content.

With every good is several bad plus when the word spam is mentioned everything makes more sense. I guess I see the good and bad in both allowing past upvotes compared to not allowing. When it's explained like this, however, the voting window makes more sense.

There have been ideas and I totally get what you say but a lot of it comes down to abuse as well as practicalities of the blockchain. On the abuse side you would have loads of accounts just voting on old comments or posts of their fellow farmers accounts. It's hard to catch them sometimes even in the 7 day window.

I am a big fan of tipping though and wish that it would be introduced maybe add or tie this in to the savings account but also tied in with the voting so that you could vote on old posts but the equivalent vote amount if the post was older than 7 days would be deducted from your savings.

Man, now that I think of it, that would be awesome. Saves you having to choose how much etc. Just vote it and don't care apart from keeping your savings topped up!

That's the first time you thought of that? Good one.. what else are you thinking?

Wait! Forget I asked

It's not until spam or abuse is mentioned I'm able to answer my own question, those words are good at fuckin things up.

I know. They fuck up a lot of good things on the chain. Bloody spammy farmer bastards! :OD

Content lasts a day here, and then it's 'old hat'... never mind 8 days!

Touché.

I reckon we should try a 'cool kid's club'- approach with marketing.

All my attempts at onboarding have failed.

I am not offering help anymore, but act like they are not cool enough to join the club. Understanding Hive (steem) is complicated in the beginning and there is no easy way. And that's exactly why it has value; you have to work for it.

you have to work for it.

Is this why so few stick around? Maybe they don't like to work. Posting their snaps is fun.. but is this fun? I walk away from it at times when it becomes a chore. It should not be like that.

I am with you! It needs to be so much easier. Something more like the WAX Cloud Wallet experience. I love what they have done over there. That is awesome that you were able onboard someone! I got another person on a week or two ago, but I haven't seen them post anything yet. I threw a 500 HP delegation over to them in case they want to start doing some curation.

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I don't try anymore @bozz, what can I offer? HIVE.., that funny symbol nobody cares about. It's hard work and every now an again I have a moment of madness when I think I can grab someone. We will see.

At least you have a good attitude about it! :)

What we need is ‘Sign-up with your Facebook credentials', Twitter is good, but Facebook is the killer option and the one HIVE (or LEO) needs.

These were my exact thoughts when there was all the excitement around Twitter. I was surprised that LeoFinance went for Twitter but then realised that it is the most popular platform for crypto users.

However, for non cryptos Facebook is way more popular. I just kept thinking if I was ever gong to have a chance of signing up the communities I used to be involved in it would have to be via Facebook. Khal has said that that is coming though so, hopefully, it won't be long.

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Signup with Facebook is the key.., they may get on easier but that doesn't mean they will stick.

True. I think a major problem, and with marketing too, is that Hive is more than one thing but is talked about as though it's only one.

It could be the blogging plarform, the token or the blockchain and people talk about it without differentiating which bit they mean.

From a marketing perspective I think it would be better it they just focussed on the blockchain with all it's plus points and marketed to developers.

For bloggers it would be better to point people to specific frontends depending if they're interested in crypto or finance or gaming or music etc.

Once blogging within a specific community it would then be easier to learn about the other stuff. But as long as it's all lumped in together it will continue to be very confusing for newbies.

I actually came here from Facebook, hoping to do the creative stuff I was doing there on Steem but there wasn't a big enough community at the time. So I slipped into the photography gang. And did some general blogging.

I never transitioned to Hive nor went back to Facebook and, as a result, the creative side of my life has dwindled and I've ended up gaming. Gaming?!!! Bloody hell. How did that happen?

Wandered a bit off topic there. 😂

I like the games, some are better than others. Some are nice generators of HIVE..

Is there anything like a plugnplay interface to set up a specialized community for sign up? That way a mod could handle the incoming through that particular gateway.

Also, I am not sure if @pharesim's Hiveinvite is still operational, but I think it allowed for group invite links, that could hold a number of account tokens until gone.

Also, I am not sure if @pharesim's Hiveinvite is still operational

I don't know of that..

I couldn't log in there earlier, but will have another look later.

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I spent hours on people just sharing the basics of Hive and get an understandable rejection. The tutorials are fine as they are it's just a matter of prospecting candidates to onboard that makes a key difference. Someone that wants to share their hobby and interested in earning from what they want to talk about, a content creator already, and curious about crypto are the top three criteria I look for.

Most of the time, the last requirement has to be nurtured over the course of weeks. Sometimes I get lucky they sign up, even more lucky if they post, now I just wish most would mentioned the blockchain in our daily conversations at least. I still waffle for that onboarding effort. Just doing my part for the ecosystem.

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I spent hours on people just sharing the basics of Hive and get an understandable rejection.

A bad use of your time I would say, it's not for everyone.. just us clever bastards.


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