Will Hard Fork 25 result in more trails

in LeoFinance2 months ago

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Hard Fork 25 is around the corner and with the new curation changes a lot of things will likely change.

Under Hard Fork 25, the first 24 hours of voting will be akin to linear rewards without the reverse auction. This means curation rewards for everyone's vote in the first 24 hours will be only be affected by the amount of Hive Power & Voting Weight (rshares) only.

There is no penalty for voting early, and everyone is rewarded as they are the first voter if they vote within 24 hours. After 24 hours, there will be a curve, but it won't be as harsh as it was under previous hard forks.

I previously wrote a post about this and my thoughts on how this will potentially result in more comment voting and ultimately more engagement.

I also believe these changes will encourage more voters to follow trails of trusted curators so they don't have to spend as much time curating themselves. Curation (manual) is time consuming, quality curation is even more so.

Under the current and previous hard forks, the initial voter and a handful of other voters got the lions share of the curation rewards with each voter getting less than previous votes. This is true unless the votes happen in the same block (3 second window), then they behave as they voted at the same time.

One of the biggest changes to curation is removing the pressure to vote on a post within 3 minutes and the incentive to curation snipe larger stake holders. While I fully expect many people won't change their voting habits, I believe many will start following trails to reduce the amount of time they spend curating and hopefully spreading rewards more organically to good content creators.

Trail owners no longer have a huge financial incentive to grow their trail in selfish ways. All trail voters will receive a fair share of the curation rewards based on their stake only.

Another thing I have been thinking about a lot lately is how this hard fork will benefit community projects where they frequently get curation sniped by tiny votes only to leach as much curation rewards as they can. For example, Utopian-IO was a project with almost 5M stake and was frequently sniped when new submissions came in or when moderators were compensated.

Another example is when users like @theycallmedan do initiatives where he rewards comments for completing certain tasks. Many users have successfully created bots or manually sniped his votes prior to him placing his vote. This discourages users from making similar initiatives.

Under the new hard fork you can create communities, initiatives, contests without fear of being curation sniped every step of the way. It also means users who want to help reward these projects they can do so with no impact on their potential rewards. If you want to support a specific imitative and use your influence to increase the rewards of participants, you can do so without trying to race against other users.

This should result increase how often curators vote with their heart or support projects they care about. Many of the economy changes in hard forks have tried to create an ecosystem where voting selfishly results in similar rewards as voting organically. Each economic change has slowly brought us closer to this ideal. The more tools, incentives, and balance we bring to organic voting, the more likely users will opt for that over trying to maximize their rewards selfishly.

I frequently refer to a make believe Greed / Altruistic scale. I believe greed is unavoidable, but there is a balance where I feel having at least 51% altruism and 49% or less greed is critical to a healthy life. Those with 50%+ to 100% greed will not change no matter how balanced and easy you make it. You can only work with those who actually care about the community and the ecosystem around them. Free downvotes from Hard Fork 21 gave and continues to give the community tools to deal with those with unhealthy levels of greed.

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote?
Will it encourage you to join a trail?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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I think I will keep on the manually curating content I like, from my LEO account.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I vote up a lot of comments anyway and don't worry about what curation rewards I get. I think any system that is optimised for bots is bad. Few humans can find, read and appreciate a post in the first few minutes. I get that some people don't have time to vote manually, but following good curators ought to get rewards where they are earned and that is vital to the success of Hive.

I tend not to follow trails, apart from @tenkminnows that I control, as I can use up my votes anyway. I tried it ages ago, but found my votes going to posts I might not have supported by choice.

I don't follow downvote trails as that has some risks, as we saw this week. I know others follow mine, so I use them with care.

I think any system that is optimised for bots is bad. Few humans can find, read and appreciate a post in the first few minutes.

I disagree on this for comments, with GinaBot and Friday, it isn't uncommon for me to see, read, and respond to a comment within 60 seconds. I don't vote comments as I don't want to wait around for the timer, I don't want to give up 40% of my influence due to the curve, and I don't want to drop massive comment votes to get over the curve.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Okay, I agree we may see comments quickly, if we happen to be available. I was thinking more of posts. I have still been voting on comments as and when I see them as I want to reward them and am not going to revisit later. If the new system makes that more efficient then that's great.

I've not used the bots for alerts. I use the notifications in peakd and ecency and that's enough for my needs.

'these changes will discourage manual curation'

Seems like a step backward.

Where did I say they would discourage manual curation, it will in fact do the opposite.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I generally don't think about how I vote. I vote on what I like. Rewards come in 7 days later. So, the answer is no.

Everyone should use Hive like this. What more, people should stop caring about the rewards, and they should focus on natural, genuine, authentic interactions. Like on any normal social network.

Should yes, i try to it. But i also think about my rewards, that little voice will be always in the background of my mind. It is addicting to see the Hive Power growing.

It's a lot better if people join curation trails rather than auto voting a certain author blindly. It all depends on how we market this hard fork. It also sucks forcing users to vote but we can encourage them to follow existing manual voters. After the HF25, there is no more incentive for running a curation trail (unless you want to abuse it for circle-jerking, etc) so I don't know how this will play out.

Anyway, it's nice to move in a direction even if it's not perfect. We know, Hive is improving or at least is trying to improve itself. Who could think a decentralized community can achieve such things.

After the HF25, there is no more incentive for running a curation trail (unless you want to abuse it for circle-jerking, etc) so I don't know how this will play out.

Actually if you have multiple accounts to curate and comment in the tribes with and then following those with your main account where you have your HP staked then that is a great use of curation trails I think, you can give higher votes with tribe tokens and still not depleting your HP voting power.

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote?

No, it wouldn't. i have never actively thought about gaming the curation system. Maybe this only applies to bigger accounts.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I thought the exact same thing. I think most of us that didn't buy our way into the system (i.e., bought Hive) but have to painstakingly earn every coin would never dream of gaming the system.

My guess is that these levels of greed do indeed only apply to large investors, although we also need them for the platform to go anywhere (probably).

I don't see this as greed per se. If I bought into hive I most likely would optimize the use of my stake. This is why a few clamor for more defi features on the hive (some would be coming soon) so those interesting in ROI can chase that, while those genuinely interested in decentralized social media can do the same. Hopeful hive can grow in different directions.

It definitely is, even if it's justified greed (which it may be!). I'm wary yet hopeful of DeFi in general, but am not sure it belongs on Hive. Hive is inherently a social currency, and I think developing a worthwhile DeFi solution that didn't ravage the reward pool might be a challenge.

However, I'll say this: as someone who's been on the platform since nearly the beginning I am well aware that the current state of things is a MASSIVE improvement over how it used to be.

Anyway, we're still essentially in an experimental phase, so talk of any particular solution shouldn't be ruled out.

I am hoping we see less to be honest. Auto votes suck they control trending on tribe front Ends.

I see a small use for trails but that's mostly vacation type trail when you aren't able to vote.

I usually vote on what I like. And if I have a reason, I leave a comment as well. So no, I don't think it will change the way I vote.

l

This is how it should be. I do the exact same.

I doubt it will change the way I vote. But hopefully it will improve my curation rewards. At the very least, I hope 100% of my vote will show up on the post. A decent portion of my votes go to low-paying posts and it sucks to see my little 9 cent vote get reduced to 4 cents.

I don't think the changes will impact my actions much. I've always voted comments and posts I like. I do think I will "Feel" happier with the results as I've never been able to vote with the idea of maximizing my rewards instead of allocating my own share of the reward pool.

I know on Leo I enjoy powering up and knowing it will pay off for me instead of the curation snipers.

I'm hopeful it will be a good thing.

Yes HF25 will definitely change the way I vote.

Comment voting
So far I have been rewarding people who comment on my post only with my Leo account because it has a linear reward. After HF25, I will start voting good organic comments on my posts and also if I read something on other's posts as well.

Automated voting
I already use automated voting and to be honest, I make my votes at the 3-minute mark. After HF25, I will choose some trails that do manual curation on good posts. A percentage of my vote will also go through @indiaunited community where we do manual curation. I already have some plans to make curation better in our Indian community. Get some more curators and reward the curators as well for their content discovery.

I personally feel that content discovery is still a big problem. But at least after HF25, I will not worry about voting on a post that is already having 5$ or 10$ rewards in it because it will not affect my curation rewards.

I agree that manual curation is painful but I wish after HF25, there should be more curation trail and the rewards should be diversified. There are still some communities that are focusing on manual curation, those communities should start getting more members in the trial and votes should be diversified. There are still a lot of good content writers who's posts end up in 1 or 2 dollars because they don't have any big stakeholders voting for them. At least that should change after HF25.

Learn to use commas.

"Hard Fork 25 is around the corner, and with the new curation changes, a lot of things will likely happen."
Not sure if it even needs the 2 commas, but surely needs at least one comma to break this run-on sentence up.^^
So there is all u had to do, so you earned a flag! haha

Looks like nothing changed to me, the same old circle jerks at the same old bs rewarding crap posts! This make a little difference, I did not ever think about the linear rewards and the window, and the going game theory. All I think is what can I flag you for! hah Hope you don't get all mad and flag me back, just because I am using my flags wisely. Wen SMT?? this HF is pointless, and skirting the real issues. WEN HSC, wen HIVE finance defi? that is what u should have built. HIVE is failing again. HIVE is so bad, even you need to come to pOB to post!


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Ahh Nick, you haven’t changed have you? Still require 10 edits per comment. What you salty about these days?

I’m not salty, i was merely correcting your grammar. This is proof of brain after all. I have high standards for you, and everyone making that much on a post. haha 😂
and p.s. I don't require 10 edits a comment, i just keep thinking of add ons every time i hit send, and I don't want to look spammy sending 10 comments, then you would say "Why do I send 10 distinct replies when you can just edit."

I'm just pointing out that nothing has changed at all here or there, yet! No improvement. I wanna see HIVE go up like any other coin, but it won't until then.

The irony, have you see the dribble you just wrote? I think I am actually dumber for reading it.

I was on my phone and distracted. I don't care, I know I'm smart, so I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I am comfortable posting anything. lol
P.S. I didn't insult you, however you decided to take the low road again I see. Yup, same old @themarkymark. What got you so salty, Hua? jk If you don't watch out they are gonna be calling us both "Dumb and Dumber!" haha

I'm probably the smartest person on this platform, that's what everyone hates me so much. A lot of the time I just dumb myself down, on purpose, to try and blend in! haha

Oh man that was a good one and they said I am the one with jokes.

trailed

i will probably benefit from it (because of a lot of manual voting and not looking at the time posted) but will probably not change the way i vote.

I do a lot of manual curation and, you are right, it is time consuming. However, much of that is focused upon Leofinance which operates with a different curve.

You bring up some great points. I think the biggest advantage to this is that it will encourage more voting of comments on Hive. This is something that I think needs to be done to stimulate engagement.

Newer people of complain they cant get noticed. That is likely true since it takes effort to gain a following. However, commenting is a way to alleviate that since many authors do read their comments.

If we can reward them with Hive, that will, in my opinion, help to spread the distribution of the token out.

With such a small users base it might not be noticeable to start, but as it grows we might see that as a viable way to spread Hive to more accounts.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Like @travelwritemoney, I vote as I like things, not really paying any attention to my curation reward. That may not the best way to get the most money possible, but... well, no one ever blamed me of thinking too much of money. With that in mind, my voting habits won't change, but perhaps I will see more reward, so that's a win.

That said, I do share your hopes.

You mention HF25 will encourage vote comment more.
Can you explain a little deeper cause I always upvote
lions that comment on my post now?.
Thanks for keeping us in the loop for HF25.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Check out the post I wrote about it linked above.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Got it. I read the post
and we will see how it works.
Thanks

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Thank you for your insights on the next hardfork and how it will affect engagement. I enjoyed your description of what you termed the GREED:ALTRUISM SCALE. I just watched a documentary exploring this duality resident in all human beings. You are on point.

I believe greed is unavoidable, but there is a balance where I feel having at least 51% altruism and 49% or less greed is critical to a healthy life.

The Marky Mark

In answer to your questions:

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote? Will it encourage you to join a trail?

I will not be changing the way I vote. I do use some automation in my daily voting in order to spread out my votes to as many users as possible.

I do follow some, whom I believe, to be quality curators to find good posts. I guess you could say I am sort of following a curation trail after-all!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Big-time game changer! That will do it!

When will Hardforks not be about the personal trivial annoyances of a few? There is nothing more selfish than that.

Just Jump Already!

Are you reading the responses????

Ooh GIF | Gfycat

Did you know a blue whale’s tongue weighs more than an average African Elephant.

How in the fuck?

Screenshot 2021-04-23 1.04.50 PM.png

Would you like the link to my onlyfans?

He muted you, lol he muted me a million times too, don't worry about it, a sign of weakness.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Either he had one hell of a pitch or one hell of a sob story.

How that "it" became so influential on Hive the world will never know.

Like c'mon! Just look at it.

Better to be upset at a situation rather than the people.

Not in this case. It is right there.

Did you know in cuck talk, you just said for me to use my onyx trunk on some whale (assuming your wife) until she is blue or until I collapse? You're presumably betting on the latter.

Bruh... you are wild. Wild Magnolias. Last time I mess with @themarkymark. Steem men don't cheat.

My voting on posts won't change much. I might start voting comments a little.

Nobody has time to think about how we vote, we just do it! Swoosh! lol

That's how it should be.

I'm not going to change the way I vote.

However, I would like to see some kind of incentivization for voting and curating new users' posts because I think they need to feel part of the community since the beginning.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

However, I would like to see some kind of incentivization for voting and curating new users' posts because I think they need to feel part of the community since the beginning.

That is a double-edged sword. We have seen a lot of people show up on Hive, get rewarded, then jet.

New users often complain about the lack of rewards they get because we bring them here solely for the rewards. We do not ask for any commitment to the chain or what is taking place here.

Those that put in effort end up getting rewarded. This HF should make upvoting comments more productive, hence that is a way to enrich new users. After all if someone is showing up on your posts each day with a comment, are you going to notice them?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

That is a double-edged sword. We have seen a lot of people show up on Hive, get rewarded, then jet.

You mean like this one?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

LOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL!


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Yeah and from what I heard, there was some type of exit scam also associated with that one too.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Ain't that the truth!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I have yet to use auto-voting. I signed up for hive.vote and set up a few auto-vote criteria, but I have kept the threshold high enough that it never (to my knowledge) has kicked in.

With that said, under the HF25 scheme, if I were to use an auto-voting bot, I would want to configure it to follow and support manual curators, by auto-voting at the 23:45 mark (just inside the 24-hour threshold) and only voting on posts that had already received both a high number of raw votes (a lot of people voting for it) and, to a lesser degree, a decent $ amount of votes.

Under that scenario, my auto-voting would merely be an amplifier for early (presumably mostly manual) curation.

From a pure 'curation reward maximization' strategy standpoint, I think the above approach would be maximal. This is because I would be voting on posts that already have received large numbers of upvotes (so it is relatively good content), and my vote will amplify that, and amplify it just at the moment when later curation rewards are modestly shifted toward my benefit.

So, in short, I believe HF25 will essentially accomplish what I was arguing for here when I talked about incentivizing auto-voting bots to vote at a threshold window that was a day or more removed from the initial post.

With all that said, I would support changing the threshold from 24 hours to 36 hours.

That way the auto-vote amplification (assuming others follow my logic from above and implement it) will occur at a 180-degree phase shift on the global time scale. In other words, folks that engage on Hive at the same time each day will have their posts amplified at a completely different (opposite) time of day; that is more likely to cross-pollinate the visibility of posts across time zones and across 'habit zones' (is that a thing?).


Posted via proofofbrain.io

This is because I would be voting on posts that already have received large numbers of upvotes (so it is relatively good content)

Yeah, count on that. For ultra maximum maximization of "curation" rewards. I bet all those posts indisputably will be "relatively" good content!! LoL


Your post was promoted by @nonsowrites

Mostly, people vote on posts because they like it, they don't care about the curves and much of the rewards. They just want to appreciate stuff they like. I've hardly ever met people who really take curves and curation rewards into consideration. But I bet they exist, though, it's all a game/farm to some. But I'm not cynical, it's all beautiful when they do it they right way.

I am generally lost in the nostalgia of past Steemit. Engaged communities, discord groups, discussions and feedback and votes. Even for the little guys. Those days seem long gone

It all sounds pretty good to me. I haven't followed or been part of a trail in quite some time but you raise a few good points here so I may follow a few soon. I actually don't even remember how to follow a voting trail. Lol

As for me, being new, I was just voting quality content and comments. Seems like many after the fork will be doing similar.

Glad you put out the article, it put into perspective what it's like before I joined.

It will not change the way I vote. I still plan to have most of my votes through manual curation. I do plan to support some of the manual voting trails once my account is bigger to support those communities. But its only when my VP is high.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I will still have auto vote mainy because I want to spread my votes to as many as posissible. But I welcome these changes as I will definitely experiment with them :)

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote?

Not really. Most of my voting stake is on a bot and it'll stay that way. I just review the votes after they get cast and remove the ones I don't like/downvote the really bad ones that got overrewarded. Add manual votes to that when I find good content and you have my current voting patterns. I already vote comments that I like and use my downvote as well. Will it change? No because I find it good.

I don't like the 24 hour rule. I think it should be at least 3 days. Still, it's better than the current system so I'm still really looking forward to this hard fork.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

A majority of the votes come in within 24 hours. The point of the curves is to reward those who "found" the post, if we set it to 3 days, we might as well go full linear rewards as there is only a handful of votes happening past that, except for abuse, they usually like to vote late.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

greed is unavoidable

Not sure why people are greedy on this platform when you can support everyone around you & help the community grow. This will ultimately push the price in the long run, directly or indirectly and you will be benefited too, since many of those you have helped, would return the favor. Why wouldn't they?

On Hive, by being the opposite of greedy, you can make more money!

image.png

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Where there is money, there is greed. The bigger the gap in rewards between greedy behavior, and authentic organic behavior, the more people will choose greed.

Some of the hard forks like the EIP were an attempt to shrink that gap, this change shrinks it further.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I do not know much about. Iread and I vote the ones i Like, if they write more interesting stuff i follow. this is my strategy.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I’ll probably stop autovoting, since the only reason for me to do so is the timing. My vote will be all manual

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I wonder how many people will start voting like bid bots used to: every 2.4 hours to make sure they place the largest vote possible for max curation returns under the new rules.

I'm not sure this change really encourages that. The difference between voting at 2.4 hours to have a 100% voting power vote is insignificant than using up your voting power on a regular basis and just trying to keep it above 80% and not hitting 100%.

I've always wanted to do the math on this to confirm it, but the current curve makes that even more complicated.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This sounds like a good idea to me. Anything that increases voting and community interaction is good. As for the question about trails, I don't know enough about them to have an opinion one way or the other.

On the whole I think the changes are better. However, there are still serious issues facing our humble platform. Right now, we need to increase the amount of people curating content, so that we are sure to retain good authors.

Right now there are plenty of people who are consistent with crap or mediocre content because it's easy to keep a consistent pace up with content at that level. But if you're devoting more effort to superior content, you're taking a real risk that no one will see it and it will be dramatically undervalued. Therefore this is discouraged inherently.

I recently made a post about a potential solution to this (which I will not link to without permission). The idea is for a "curation weighted voting" mechanism whereby those who upvote a content creator may receive slightly greater rewards if that author then has a breakout post within a certain amount of time.

For example, if you voted on a post that didn't do so well, but three days later you vote on another of their posts that does, your share of the rewards goes up from what it was.

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote?
Will it encourage you to join a trial?

No.
Already have been, the curation sniping never affected me so I hope the issue is resolved now.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I think those that will be affected most by the hard fork 25 will be those that are used to gaming the whole system....


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Lol this is going to require some popcorn.

It is a serious one,the hard fork 25 will make the HIVE blockchain to become better...


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I am just going to see what @antisocialist says about it. They seem to be quite informed about the core issues.

The poor people's tax and the HBD liquidity are hopefully resolved.

It is finally happening!!

The liquidity of the HBD really needs to be resolved and to make the HIVE blockchain to become more transparent....


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Yeah I didn't know it was such a big deal to make a stablecoins, but it technically is a epic accomplishment

Yeah it is most especially if we weigh the pros and cons of the Stablecoins....


Posted via proofofbrain.io

Curation (manual) is time consuming, quality curation is even more so.

This 100%.... 4 hours can go by very quickly as you sift through the bee hive

It won't change the way I vote, other than those rare occasions that I see a post I like within the first 5 minutes of it being posted.

Like others I just vote for stuff I like, and usually this means I only upvote 0.001 Hive, sometimes its frustrating but i see the upvote as having two values, the monetary value, and also the value of sending the message you liked their content. Sometimes its hard to know which one is more valuable.

I am very supportive of the new changes to voting because in the end you will reward those manual curators that dont optimise the rewards, secondly those that delegated their vote because of the inefficiency of manually curating might just be brought back in, and thats got to be good for quality content.

Finally I hope we'll start seeing more upvotes on comments as these are just as valuable as posts and really add to the engagement.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I think its smart to simplify things here. The algorithm was too compkex too soon. In the small numbers we have and in the phase of growing, simpler is better.

It's not really going to change the way I vote because I do all my curating manually but I do welcome these changes. I think it's gonna be positive to the community in general.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I do not think that HF25 will change the way i vote. I do vote by following trails (if more than 95% VP) and manually. I continue doing so past HF25 because i just do not like let my VP sitting on 100%.

This is a great piece, im a bit embarrassed as a newbie i didn't know half of it but thanks for sharing especially to POB.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I did not know that there is so much math behind the votes etc.
I though it’s just cites as you come and appreciate someone but clearly there is a lot behind the scene.
So now if someone votes after 24 will it be less beneficial or more ? Sorry I could not understand it fully.


Posted via proofofbrain.io

I am a manual voter and wonder why it took so many years to get rid of a curation system and curve that made organic voting so much more difficult and disincentivized.

Will Hard Fork 25 change the way you vote?
Will it encourage you to join a trail?

I don't think it will change how I vote very much. Right now I am still a full manual voter, and try to spend my votes out to 12 hours when I first log in in the mornings to Hive, and then again when I re-log in in the evening.

I do rely on 4 other curators for when I myself do not find sufficient items, and then I also maintain quite a lot of list that I run through on occasion.

I do not have a lot of HP so it does not take me overly long to get 30-40 votes a day out, in time I may need to join a curation trail, but I really prefer to be my own judge when it comes to content or people that receive my vote.

i like trails, especially ones that lead to forks not taken. lol

It won't change the way i vote. I don;t follow trails, but i do delegate to leo.voter, hive.curation and a few others.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I am very happy about these upgrades and am happy it will be beneficial for tools like curation trails which are very helpful when used correctly.

Partly following trails and partly manually curating has been my strategy on the chain. Not primarily to maximise curation rewards but just so support good contents. Good to see all these positive changes though, for those that care enough about curation rewards.

Low Ability Mark again! This is how you look like:

image.png

I never cared for auto-voting as a scheme to game curation algorithms. I want people to read what I write, and ideally comment on it for conversations to develop as a result. I usually upvote comments like that, so I don't anticipate any real change to my voting habits. I hope Curie and Curangel don't change their projects as a resulr. I may try joining a trail at some point, but the reward curve has never been a major incentive for me, and I hope this just rewards more manual curation instead of low-effort bots and trails.